First Impressions, please!

[Barthheart]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I like a lot of things about this game, but I'm playing the first German campaign scenario (the one with the child) for the 10th time on Easy and I still can't manage to save the child AND take all the VPS in the time allotted. ....
I guess there's an AAR somewhere that explains the gaming ploy needed to win this one. I would prefer to win it using a reasonable facsimile of military tactics...

How are you losing? Are you running out of time? If yes this means you are spending too much time not moving your troops forward. You need to be aggressive and draw enemy fire with single squads then shake or kill them with your other troops.

There is no "gamey" ploy to be able to win this.

I don't know of an AAR that shows one way to win this scenario. But there are many ways to accomplish the needed victory conditions.

[aaatoysandmore]

The fact that the game is determined in turns is what makes it challenging. You basically don't have enough time to just sit there and wait for an opportunity to pounce on the ai. I remember that about Squad Leader too. It's one reason I don't like canned scenario's anymore as they get samey and the longevity of the game diminishes. I do hope there is a scenario editor in the game or a lot of different makeups of units to choose and use before each mission. Only thing is no matter what you choose differently it sounds like it's the same mission (save dah baby) over n over for as long as you play it. For future wishes Mark a random battle generator would be quite welcome.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Tom Proudfoot

There is Option B: eliminate all enemy units and do the rescue offscreen. Most scenarios will be an auto victory if you kill every single enemy unit.

But the 'girl' keeps running towards the Soviets and if she gets shot in the crossfire it's an automatic defeat and you can't progress to the next battle. I'm just a dumb-ass anyway. I lose most war games I play... ignore me.

[Redmarkus5]

Just played it again. On T6 the girl ran into a house next to a Soviet unit. I moved Wurtz there but before he could take command of her and move her to safety, she was killed by Soviet fire. Immediate defeat. All other achievements irrelevant.

Damn it. I'm tired of complaining on these forums and sounding like a psycho. Uninstall and back to real life for me!

[lparkh]

I am playing the German campaign and i found the first the hardest of the 3 I've played. Tips: focus on probing with single units to draw fire. Then concentrate on making half squads without ldr cower. They never rally after that. If the ruskies have fully fire use that opportunity to move up. Use smoke if u have the time. Keep joing units wt ldrs to get the 6 points of movement. Took me 7 tries. Now i could probably do it most times. Second scenario i won the 1st time!

[darkmul]

First Impressions.
The command activation is very good and is good at simulating degrading effect of battle on the command structure.
With Medics, heroes and leaders there is plenty of choice in how you play.

The maps are very nice and it looks like we will be able to make our own. All forms of terrain as you would expect which seem to fall into 3 grades, open, Degrading and Blocking. LOS is based on what is in the way not just the hex e.g. a small building doesn't block the entire hex, all LOS starts from the hex center to the targets center hex.

The counters have all the required information so you do not have to look up tables. You also have a pile of support weapons to give your troops. Tank combat works well and is nicely detailed with hit location and deflection angles, and tanks can't see anything buttoned up with out help.

The manuals are very good, but the game relays all the information of the mechanics with die rolls you really don't need to read the manual till later, you can jump straight in and get wasted to a man. Also the counter system at the bottom of the screen tells you what actions are available, this is a really good feature.

There is support Aircraft and Artillery which feel big as it should.the maneuver element is only 10 men.

The tactical changes to the battlefield e.g smoke, star shells and rubble creation works well.

There is an editor but it does not have a manual as yet. Looking forward to this.

Multiplayer is there but I have not found anyone as yet.

All in all the games is only complex in its size, all the rules are very easy to understand.

This is a great game. I would recommend this game to anyone who likes the squad board games.

Thanks to Mark and Matrix and there respective teams that brought out a quality game, they should be proud.

thanks
Dark Mullisha.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Just played it again. On T6 the girl ran into a house next to a Soviet unit. I moved Wurtz there but before he could take command of her and move her to safety, she was killed by Soviet fire. Immediate defeat. All other achievements irrelevant.

Damn it. I'm tired of complaining on these forums and sounding like a psycho. Uninstall and back to real life for me!

Wow the game is that hard for you? I haven't met a game yet that I couldn't eventually beat. I really gota get this one as it sounds better than Pandora.

[Harv]

Add me to the "either I really suck at this and/or the game is really really hard" camp. Took three times for mission one of the German campaign, barely squeaked the second mission with my last possible move of the last turn, and was just utterly crushed in mission 3. And I mean crushed. All on Normal difficulty, and I'd hate to be the masochist who tries Hard difficulty at my "skill" level.

It is great fun however, and anything both entertaining and thought provoking like this while beating the crap out of me is nothing short of highly recommended. Off we go again....

[Titanwarrior89]

This game is a blast.  Love the tanks and flamethrowers.[&o][:D]

[JWW]

Re the Nazi and the child, I had the honor of going on a terrain walk of the Hurtgen Forest while stationed in Germany in the 1980s, with American and German veterans of the battle, and a group of American officers from the 2nd Bde, 8th Infantry Division. One German veteran told the story of his lieutenant. During the fighting one night an American soldier ended up between the lines wounded. For what seemed like hours he cried out for help. Finally the German lieutenant told his men he couldn't stand it any longer and had to try to help the American. The lieutenant went out and never came back.. They found his body and the American, now dead, later. The lieutenant had apparently been shot by Americans in the night. I have not played that scenario, but I have no problem envisioning a German soldier trying to help a child in the middle of a battle, despite the brutality of the Nazi regime and the horror of the war in Russia.

[Gizuria]

Well well. Doesn't this look the business? Bought it and downloading now.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Just played it again. On T6 the girl ran into a house next to a Soviet unit. I moved Wurtz there but before he could take command of her and move her to safety, she was killed by Soviet fire. Immediate defeat. All other achievements irrelevant.

Damn it. I'm tired of complaining on these forums and sounding like a psycho. Uninstall and back to real life for me!

Wow the game is that hard for you? I haven't met a game yet that I couldn't eventually beat. I really gota get this one as it sounds better than Pandora.

Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

[fentum]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Just played it again. On T6 the girl ran into a house next to a Soviet unit. I moved Wurtz there but before he could take command of her and move her to safety, she was killed by Soviet fire. Immediate defeat. All other achievements irrelevant.

Damn it. I'm tired of complaining on these forums and sounding like a psycho. Uninstall and back to real life for me!

Wow the game is that hard for you? I haven't met a game yet that I couldn't eventually beat. I really gota get this one as it sounds better than Pandora.

Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

That is an interesting point. BoB:SE deals with it quite well by giving a cover modifier and several 'decoys' rather than requiring spotting. I wonder how an 'area fire' concept might affect the game.

[Barthheart]

Sorry you didn't like the game redmarkus.

HoS was never intended to be a detailed simulation of infantry tactics in WWII. It is intended to be a
squad level combat game set in WWII.

Sure some things aren't exactly as in RL but that's what makes it a game. To make the scenarios tense and action packed
the designer has made it so you can't just sit around and blast away at empty/full hexes hoping to hit something.
You have to be pro-active and aggressive as the attacker. You are on a tight time schedule and must maneuver to get
things done.

Anyway, I hope you come back and play it from that point of view.

[z1812]

ORIGINAL:
Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

Hence my question about area fire in another post. I enjoy games where, given the limitations of a wargame, real world tactics such as fire and maneuver are rewarded.

This doesn't mean to say it is not a fun game. It doesn't even mean I won't buy it. It does mean I will watch the forum closely to be sure of what I am getting should I decide to buy.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Just played it again. On T6 the girl ran into a house next to a Soviet unit. I moved Wurtz there but before he could take command of her and move her to safety, she was killed by Soviet fire. Immediate defeat. All other achievements irrelevant.

Damn it. I'm tired of complaining on these forums and sounding like a psycho. Uninstall and back to real life for me!

Wow the game is that hard for you? I haven't met a game yet that I couldn't eventually beat. I really gota get this one as it sounds better than Pandora.

Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

That's the problem you are applying modern day tactics in a WWII game. You need to play like a WWII leader or commander would have. They DID send out scouts to find out a snipers position or other troops and if he got shot they knew where they were. [:D] You can't be a nice guy in WAR. It's dog eat dog and kill or be killed. None of this "but, they are my men" they're just chits on a shingle to me and I probably have one of the worst troop lost records on the books, but, I win. [:D]

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: z1812

ORIGINAL:
Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

Hence my question about area fire in another post. I enjoy games where, given the limitations of a wargame, real world tactics such as fire and maneuver are rewarded.

This doesn't mean to say it is not a fun game. It doesn't even mean I won't buy it. It does mean I will watch the forum closely to be sure of what I am getting should I decide to buy.

This is probably not in due to gamey tactics of other games. Players would just sit back and fire into hexes until they hit something. In real war you don't have the luxury of time like you do playing a game. So, I would think that is why it's not there. Now if they made some rule that you only got one area fire for so many turns I could agree with that because the ai sounds good enough to pulverize you if you were playing the turtle game of sit and fire in the wind.

[Ron]

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

Sorry you didn't like the game redmarkus.

HoS was never intended to be a detailed simulation of infantry tactics in WWII. It is intended to be a
squad level combat game set in WWII.

Actually after reading the AAR and watching the two videos in another thread this morning, I have to second what Redmarkus said as that is the overwhelmingly impression I get as well. I think everyone has certain perceptions on WWII combat, but your statement seems very misleading. It should read:

It is intended to be a squad level fantasy game set in WWII.

Ironically what caught my eye initially was the lovely maps and artwork, brought back a sense of nostalgia I guess. However, once I started to learn more re the gameplay, it did more than raise an eyebrow.

1. Units moving with relative impunity in open terrain towards the enemy, even to point blank range.
2. Drawing fire by said movement in order to magically render that enemy unit incapable of responding further.
3. Entering into Melee combat with said enemy to dispatch it, seemingly the preferred(!) method of eliminating the enemy in this game.

What about fire and movement? Area fire into suspected enemy locations, basic lessons on infantry tactics learned from WWI etc. Surely the 'training' and methods employed weren't let's charge them and close assault as accepted practice put forward here! [&:] The WWII wrapping is pretty thin. I know I will get blasted for this and obviously this game is 'fun' for some and not for me, but to imply realistic WWII tactics are represented is a fallacy.

[aaatoysandmore]

War is not one dimensional. Manuals about war in no way are the beall endall of the way one should fight or command. Manuals are guides nothing more nothing less, but, certainly not an order.

[z1812]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore




Wow the game is that hard for you? I haven't met a game yet that I couldn't eventually beat. I really gota get this one as it sounds better than Pandora.

Well, good for you! But did you beat it by applying realistic military tactics such as suppression fire and maneuver, keeping one foot on the ground etc? I was an infantry officer for 10 years and trust me, I NEVER sent a squad forward to draw the enemy's fire and uncover his positions - the surest way to get yourself fragged, by the way. In this game I can't even employ MG fire on possible enemy positions, THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL INFANTRY TACTIC. But there I go again, taking on the Pandora gamers and expecting a sensible conversation about WW2 combat. Happy 'GAMING' LOL

That's the problem you are applying modern day tactics in a WWII game. You need to play like a WWII leader or commander would have. They DID send out scouts to find out a snipers position or other troops and if he got shot they knew where they were. [:D] You can't be a nice guy in WAR. It's dog eat dog and kill or be killed. None of this "but, they are my men" they're just chits on a shingle to me and I probably have one of the worst troop lost records on the books, but, I win. [:D]

@aaatoysandmore: Redmarkus has definitely been around the block a few more times than you when it comes to wargaming and I daresay in the real world Military.

So when it comes to a point of view, I will respect his and not yours.