[FIXED B482] Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

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bsq
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[FIXED B482] Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by bsq »

In a scenario I am working on, I was testing the ability of TLAM/TACTOM's to neutralise a well defended SA-5 site in order to facilitate later air strikes on nearby targets. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect this from a single TACTOM hit:

Losses:
12x SA-5c Gammon Single Rail
6x 23mm ZU-23-2
2x Building (Square Pair [5N62])
1x Building (Odd Pair HF [PRV-13])
1x Building (Tall King C [P-14])

This is not realistic at all. I have tried AGM-88's at sites and they take it apart piecemeal as expected, but I am sorry, a single hit from a UGM-109E with a 311kg warhead does not destroy an SA-5 site spread (IRL) over many acres of real estate - no way, no how. If this is WAD, then the design thinking is off, if it is not WAD, then I can post the file, you can run it and watch what happens. Here is what happened when my tomahawk hit one of the Square Pair radars... Reads up - sorry

01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: Building (Square Pair [5N62]) has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - Building (Square Pair [5N62]) has suffered weapon damage: 649 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: Building (Tall King C [P-14]) has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - Building (Tall King C [P-14]) has suffered fragmentation damage: 81 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: Building (Odd Pair HF [PRV-13]) has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - Building (Odd Pair HF [PRV-13]) has suffered fragmentation damage: 260 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: Building (Square Pair [5N62]) has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - Building (Square Pair [5N62]) has suffered fragmentation damage: 58 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: 23mm ZU-23-2 has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - 23mm ZU-23-2 has suffered fragmentation damage: 297 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: 23mm ZU-23-2 has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - 23mm ZU-23-2 has suffered fragmentation damage: 227 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: 23mm ZU-23-2 has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - 23mm ZU-23-2 has suffered fragmentation damage: 50 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: 23mm ZU-23-2 has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - 23mm ZU-23-2 has suffered fragmentation damage: 146 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: 23mm ZU-23-2 has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - 23mm ZU-23-2 has suffered fragmentation damage: 22 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: 23mm ZU-23-2 has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - 23mm ZU-23-2 has suffered fragmentation damage: 81 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 149 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 128 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 171 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 20 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 35 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 17 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 52 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 244 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 28 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 255 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 44 DPs
01:16:24 - SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn) damage report: SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has been destroyed!
01:16:24 - SA-5c Gammon Single Rail has suffered fragmentation damage: 217 DPs
01:16:24 - 100% penetration achieved
01:16:24 - Weapon: UGM-109E Tomahawk Blk IV TACTOM has impacted Building (Square Pair [5N62]) (of SAM Grp (SA-5c Gammon [S-200M Vega M], 2x Bn))
Dimitris
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RE: Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by Dimitris »

Post the file.
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bsq
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RE: Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by bsq »

Here's the Scenario file, let it run, you may need to do it at 1 min speed to get the salvoes of Tomahawks out of the sub and off to the target. Disable the 1:1 detail realism option, it will 'kill' most computers after about 10 seconds otherwise. It may take 3 - 7 salvoes to get a hit, but once you do, hopefully this will reproduce the 'error'
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bsq
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RE: Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by bsq »

Just to indicate the 'wrongness' of what just happened, here is the actual site the unit modelled annotated....

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HimsSite.jpg
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ComDev
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RE: Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by ComDev »

Thanks for reporting this one [8D]
 
Seems there is a problem with a warhead modifier and/or the blast wave effects. Have registered a new entry on this one.
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Developer "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" project!
Dimitris
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RE: Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by Dimitris »

Applied the following modifications in Build 482:

* Fragmentation damage reduces with the cube of the distance instead of the square.

* When a warhead fully penetrates a target and explodes, the maximum yield of the outwards explosion (even with no target armor, ie. the internal detonation is not constrained at all) is 25% of the original yield.

* When evaluating if a facility's other aimpoints (other than the one under direct attack) are within reach of the blast/frag/cluster pattern, the maximum possible distance is _twice_ the nominal dispersion range instead of equal to it (to cater for cases where the aimpoint under question is diametrically opposite of the attack aimpoint).

With the changes, the TLAM impacts appears to have a much more reasonable damage effect. Also back-checked to confirm that these changes do not affect frag-based weapons (ARMs in particular).

Thanks for submitting this!
Tancrede
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RE: Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by Tancrede »

Hello,

So to continue that topic about blast radius, I was yesterday in "Green Tide" scenario (B481) under AGM-88 Harm missiles attack. Eventually, one went through my defense but missed my radars by 35 ft, destroying it anyway. I should assume that this success was due to the blast that originated from the 22,75 DP warhead of the AGM-88. Can you considere this blast effect (on my radar) to be realistic or will it be different after implementing B482?

Sincerely,

Tancrede
Dimitris
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RE: Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by Dimitris »

The HARM uses a frag warhead. 35ft (12m) is close enough that a frag detonation of this magnitude will shower the radar with enough fragments to take it out. We tested AHRM and other ARMs in B482 and the frag effect on the impacted target remains destructive enough (its nearby targets that receive less frag damage, which is reasonable).
kneecaps
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RE: Single TLAM Took Out SA-5 Site

Post by kneecaps »

The AGM-88 has a fragmentation warhead if I recall correctly, 35ft is 'fairly' close for a ~66kg warhead. Given radars are sensitive equipment, I think all that flying shrapnel so near could do serious damage (as designed). I'd be inclined to say that would be at least a functional kill on a radar.

EDIT: (Ah..Sunburn, you beat me to the punch!).
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