Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

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Icedawg
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Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Icedawg »

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My allied opponent has apparently thrown all his available resources into the Burma theater and it has caught me by surprise - so much so that I am thinking of abandoning central Burma (even Magwe) and pulling back to a line roughly along the bases Rangoon/Moulmeim/Raheng.

In early/mid 42, I was so concerned about defending the SRA that I basically ignored Burma. I had thought that an advance through the Burmese jungle was virtually impossible, so I defended the central Burma bases very sparsely.

It is now Nov 42 and a sea of allied units is slowly, but steadily advancing from Imphal toward Katha and Shwebo.

I hold Akyab with the 4th Div and 143rd Rgt. The hex to the NE of Akyab is held by the 14th and 20th Divs, the 21st Mixed Bde, the 65th Bde and the 112th Rgt. The hex to the E is held by the 21st Div and the 4th Rgt. I am confident I can hold here - for a bit.

The problem lies in central Burma. All I have here are 5 Thai infantry divisions, the bulk of the 14th Army (16th and 48th Divs plus all of the army's tank and artillery support units), four Southern Army infantry divisions (1st, 8th, 9th and 10th) and 4 Southern Army artillery units. Based on recon, he has a horde that would make Genghis Kahn proud.

To top it off, I had been ignorant of the unlimited stacking at level 9 airfields (I had thought that anything above 450 engines would result in overstacking penalties). I discovered this when I noticed that my opponent has over 700 aircraft (over half of which I estimate to be transports and 4Es) based at Calcutta and suffers virtually no Ops losses each turn. In short - I'm pretty sure I am completely toast in this theater.

My question is this: Is the Magwe oil center worth quite possibly losing the LCUs I have in Burma? Should I cut my losses and fall back to the Rangoon/Moulmein/Raheng line? Or should I stay and fight?
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Terminus
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Terminus »

He won't have that many troops in late 1942.
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Quixote
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Quixote »

I hold Akyab with the 4th Div and 143rd Rgt. The hex to the NE of Akyab is held by the 14th and 20th Divs, the 21st Mixed Bde, the 65th Bde and the 112th Rgt. The hex to the E is held by the 21st Div and the 4th Rgt. I am confident I can hold here - for a bit.

The problem lies in central Burma. All I have here are 5 Thai infantry divisions, the bulk of the 14th Army (16th and 48th Divs plus all of the army's tank and artillery support units), four Southern Army infantry divisions (1st, 8th, 9th and 10th) and 4 Southern Army artillery units. Based on recon, he has a horde that would make Genghis Kahn proud.


I don't recognize half of the divisions you've listed.
1. What mod are you playing?
2. How much exactly does Bill have in this mod if you're worried about losing central Burma when you have 6 plus divisions present in 42?
3. 1 and 2 aside, if you honestly think you stand a chance of losing the 8 divisions plus support troops that you list as having in Burma, then no - Magwe isn't worth it.
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Icedawg
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: Quixote

I don't recognize half of the divisions you've listed.
1. What mod are you playing?
2. How much exactly does Bill have in this mod if you're worried about losing central Burma when you have 6 plus divisions present in 42?
3. 1 and 2 aside, if you honestly think you stand a chance of losing the 8 divisions plus support troops that you list as having in Burma, then no - Magwe isn't worth it.

1. We are playing DaBigBabes C.
2. I took a quick look at his OOB, and it looks like he has available the equivalent of 8 or 9 Indian Divisions, 3 British Divisions, 6 or 7 Australian Divisions (if he stripped Australia - which I don't think he did), a Commonwealth Division, plus tons of American Army and Marine units. I have seen a couple of American Army Divisions, plus several Marine units (tank units, paratroopers and defense battalions).
3. I do honestly think I'm going to get spanked, so it looks like it's time to Sir Robin out. Simultaneously, I think I'm going to try striking somewhere else (if he has so heavily loaded Burma, he must be pretty thin elsewhere).

Edit/Addition: The 1st, 8th, 9th, 10th, 14th and 20th Divisions were bought out from the Manchukuo garrison. That's probably why they don't look all that familiar.
Amoral
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Amoral »

Burma has excellent defensive terrain. If you have been building forts in your front line bases you should only need 1 division for each 3 of his to hold the line. Prepare your fallback positions, but try and hold for another year.

The big question is what are you doing in other theatres. If he has every single soldier in Burma how are you going to punish him?
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CowboyRonin
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by CowboyRonin »

The Indian divisions are still paper tigers at this point - they are still building up to strength, and their replacement rate isn't very good. The British and Commonwealth unit replacements flat suck; any casualties those units take will be with them for a while. The American units are the only ones with a solid replacement pipeline, but their experience levels are still well below your front-line units. A conventional offensive from the Allies will be a grinding battle through the jungles. He's probably strong enough to prevent any Indian adventures on your part, but a conventional offensive is not going to destroy you in the short term. If he's been reading up on some of the AARs and tries an invasion through Ramree Island, then that can be a problem. If he's committed American troops to the region, he may have also committed American amphibs. I would definitely keep enough anti-shipping assets in the region to hurt, if not prevent, an invasion down Ramree or farther south.
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SuluSea
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by SuluSea »

ORIGINAL: Icedawg



1. We are playing DaBigBabes C.
2. I took a quick look at his OOB, and it looks like he has available the equivalent of 8 or 9 Indian Divisions, 3 British Divisions, 6 or 7 Australian Divisions (if he stripped Australia - which I don't think he did), a Commonwealth Division, plus tons of American Army and Marine units. I have seen a couple of American Army Divisions, plus several Marine units (tank units, paratroopers and defense battalions).
3. I do honestly think I'm going to get spanked, so it looks like it's time to Sir Robin out. Simultaneously, I think I'm going to try striking somewhere else (if he has so heavily loaded Burma, he must be pretty thin elsewhere).

Edit/Addition: The 1st, 8th, 9th, 10th, 14th and 20th Divisions were bought out from the Manchukuo garrison. That's probably why they don't look all that familiar.

It's just too easy for the Allies when they play as the units are chess pieces instead of moving forces with atleast some thoughts on politics.




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Icedawg
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: Amoral

Burma has excellent defensive terrain. If you have been building forts in your front line bases you should only need 1 division for each 3 of his to hold the line. Prepare your fallback positions, but try and hold for another year.

The big question is what are you doing in other theatres. If he has every single soldier in Burma how are you going to punish him?

I'm talking about the clear terrain in the central part of Burma. Pretty crappy defensive terrain, although I have Magwe, Shwebo and Mandalay built up to level 4 forts.

As far as other theaters, I don't have any meaningful place to hit him without triggering special reinforcements. I could invade India, but why? It's of marginal value and triggers swarms of extra reinforcements. Same holds true for the parts of Australia I don't already control. South Pacific ventures are pretty pointless too. I hold New Caledonia, but what is the value of heading off to Fiji and Samoa?

The only place that might be of significance is Adak, which he recently took back from me. I think my best option is to just lay low and dig in at key locations in the SRA and now, with the looming fall of Burma, Thailand.
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Icedawg
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: CowboyRonin

The Indian divisions are still paper tigers at this point - they are still building up to strength, and their replacement rate isn't very good. The British and Commonwealth unit replacements flat suck; any casualties those units take will be with them for a while. The American units are the only ones with a solid replacement pipeline, but their experience levels are still well below your front-line units. A conventional offensive from the Allies will be a grinding battle through the jungles. He's probably strong enough to prevent any Indian adventures on your part, but a conventional offensive is not going to destroy you in the short term. If he's been reading up on some of the AARs and tries an invasion through Ramree Island, then that can be a problem. If he's committed American troops to the region, he may have also committed American amphibs. I would definitely keep enough anti-shipping assets in the region to hurt, if not prevent, an invasion down Ramree or farther south.

Even after a full year? I would have thought they'd be nice and filled out by now.
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Icedawg
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Icedawg »

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
ORIGINAL: Icedawg

1. We are playing DaBigBabes C.
2. I took a quick look at his OOB, and it looks like he has available the equivalent of 8 or 9 Indian Divisions, 3 British Divisions, 6 or 7 Australian Divisions (if he stripped Australia - which I don't think he did), a Commonwealth Division, plus tons of American Army and Marine units. I have seen a couple of American Army Divisions, plus several Marine units (tank units, paratroopers and defense battalions).
3. I do honestly think I'm going to get spanked, so it looks like it's time to Sir Robin out. Simultaneously, I think I'm going to try striking somewhere else (if he has so heavily loaded Burma, he must be pretty thin elsewhere).

Edit/Addition: The 1st, 8th, 9th, 10th, 14th and 20th Divisions were bought out from the Manchukuo garrison. That's probably why they don't look all that familiar.

It's just too easy for the Allies when they play as the units are chess pieces instead of moving forces with atleast some thoughts on politics.

Well, we do have a HR that limits units to operating in areas consistent with history. (For example, I can't send any Southern Army units into China without paying PPs.) A small American contingent did operate in Burma, so as long as he doesn't bring in any more American LCUs, he's probably still playing in the spirit of the rule.

I agree with your general sentiment though. Governments would have been reluctant to send their boys off to defend foreigners when their own citizens felt at risk.
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inqistor
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by inqistor »

November 1942 is the lowest aircraft replacement period for Allies. Just challenge him in the air, and in 2-3 weeks he will have no reserves. Then strike.
No, he can not win this battle, unless you somehow broken your planes production.


In this period - the dream for Japanese player is to get Allies attacking in clear terrain. When air arm is broken just make sure to strike with your land units quick, before he gets to defensive terrain.
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Sredni »

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: Icedawg



1. We are playing DaBigBabes C.
2. I took a quick look at his OOB, and it looks like he has available the equivalent of 8 or 9 Indian Divisions, 3 British Divisions, 6 or 7 Australian Divisions (if he stripped Australia - which I don't think he did), a Commonwealth Division, plus tons of American Army and Marine units. I have seen a couple of American Army Divisions, plus several Marine units (tank units, paratroopers and defense battalions).
3. I do honestly think I'm going to get spanked, so it looks like it's time to Sir Robin out. Simultaneously, I think I'm going to try striking somewhere else (if he has so heavily loaded Burma, he must be pretty thin elsewhere).

Edit/Addition: The 1st, 8th, 9th, 10th, 14th and 20th Divisions were bought out from the Manchukuo garrison. That's probably why they don't look all that familiar.

It's just too easy for the Allies when they play as the units are chess pieces instead of moving forces with atleast some thoughts on politics.


This line of reasoning seems awfully counterproductive for anyone playing the japanese side. For every bit of political horse trading the allies had to go through the japanese had it 10 times worse with the infighting between the army and the navy.
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SuluSea
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by SuluSea »

ORIGINAL: Sredni

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: Icedawg



1. We are playing DaBigBabes C.
2. I took a quick look at his OOB, and it looks like he has available the equivalent of 8 or 9 Indian Divisions, 3 British Divisions, 6 or 7 Australian Divisions (if he stripped Australia - which I don't think he did), a Commonwealth Division, plus tons of American Army and Marine units. I have seen a couple of American Army Divisions, plus several Marine units (tank units, paratroopers and defense battalions).
3. I do honestly think I'm going to get spanked, so it looks like it's time to Sir Robin out. Simultaneously, I think I'm going to try striking somewhere else (if he has so heavily loaded Burma, he must be pretty thin elsewhere).

Edit/Addition: The 1st, 8th, 9th, 10th, 14th and 20th Divisions were bought out from the Manchukuo garrison. That's probably why they don't look all that familiar.

It's just too easy for the Allies when they play as the units are chess pieces instead of moving forces with atleast some thoughts on politics.


This line of reasoning seems awfully counterproductive for anyone playing the japanese side. For every bit of political horse trading the allies had to go through the japanese had it 10 times worse with the infighting between the army and the navy.


I agree on the counterproductive part Sredni but it's not supposed to be easy.[:)][;)] With two equal opponents the Allies are always going to win....and win earlier than historical... See AARs---> Allies marching through Burma like it's a state park.


All branches of service have political infighting none the less the IJA/IJN worked together when Imperial Headquarters issued orders. My reading makes me believe the United States was never going to let it's troops be used to restore old colonies in WW2 unless it was their own. I'm open to change of opinion on this.

Merrill's Mauruders was regimental size I don't believe the United States had much in the form of LCUs in Burma.


People can play however they chose it's just my opinion that if the Allied player plays without some restraint using political realities and it's with two equal players the Allied player will kick behind and kick it early.
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MDDgames
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by MDDgames »

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

In early/mid 42, I was so concerned about defending the SRA that I basically ignored Burma. I had thought that an advance through the Burmese jungle was virtually impossible, so I defended the central Burma bases very sparsely.

It is now Nov 42 and a sea of allied units is slowly, but steadily advancing from Imphal toward Katha and Shwebo.

I hold Akyab with the 4th Div and 143rd Rgt. The hex to the NE of Akyab is held by the 14th and 20th Divs, the 21st Mixed Bde, the 65th Bde and the 112th Rgt. The hex to the E is held by the 21st Div and the 4th Rgt. I am confident I can hold here - for a bit.

The problem lies in central Burma. All I have here are 5 Thai infantry divisions, the bulk of the 14th Army (16th and 48th Divs plus all of the army's tank and artillery support units), four Southern Army infantry divisions (1st, 8th, 9th and 10th) and 4 Southern Army artillery units. Based on recon, he has a horde that would make Genghis Kahn proud.

To top it off, I had been ignorant of the unlimited stacking at level 9 airfields (I had thought that anything above 450 engines would result in overstacking penalties). I discovered this when I noticed that my opponent has over 700 aircraft (over half of which I estimate to be transports and 4Es) based at Calcutta and suffers virtually no Ops losses each turn. In short - I'm pretty sure I am completely toast in this theater.

My question is this: Is the Magwe oil center worth quite possibly losing the LCUs I have in Burma? Should I cut my losses and fall back to the Rangoon/Moulmein/Raheng line? Or should I stay and fight?

Well, first off, no Magwe isnt worth it. The allies can bomb it easily enough. Never repair anything in range of enemy bombers.

Secondly he is exploiting a flaw in the game. Units in bases can starve to death because the base is out of supply. But units NOT in base hexes dont have this problem. They can trace supply back quite a ways, not just to the nearest base. Was a flaw in the original design, and because of the game engine, was never corrected, nor could it be short of making every hex on the map a "base" (which personally, I believe is the way it should be).

Now on the plus side. Airplanes fly from bases, and they need supplies to fly. And the allies can not get supplies into central Burma bases over land. They would have to take a port and ship it in or fly it in by transport.

Fall back far enough and hold on to the ports, and then start bombing his spearheads, and you will eventually drive him back. As for the hordes of units, they get lots of company and battalion sized units that dont pack much punch. But you have to be mindful of them oozing around you and surrounding you.

Good luck.
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I agree on the counterproductive part Sredni but it's not supposed to be easy.[:)][;)] With two equal opponents the Allies are always going to win....and win earlier than historical... See AARs---> Allies marching through Burma like it's a state park.


People can play however they chose it's just my opinion that if the Allied player plays without some restraint using political realities and it's with two equal players the Allied player will kick behind and kick it early.

I recco jrcar's excellent AAR if you have not read it. It is very possible for the Japanese player to do very well and even win the game. The game, not the war. Which is the fundamental mistake most Japanese players make. If a Japanese player is not willing to end up in 1945 hanging on to some of China, Korea, and the HI while still battling then the Allies are going to win, yes.

I'm sure people are tired of me saying it, but here it is one more time: The Allies have to win. The Japanese have only to not lose.
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SuluSea
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by SuluSea »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58



I recco jrcar's excellent AAR if you have not read it. It is very possible for the Japanese player to do very well and even win the game. The game, not the war. Which is the fundamental mistake most Japanese players make. If a Japanese player is not willing to end up in 1945 hanging on to some of China, Korea, and the HI while still battling then the Allies are going to win, yes.

I'm sure people are tired of me saying it, but here it is one more time: The Allies have to win. The Japanese have only to not lose.

No question that Japan can do very well. I just don't see it with evenly matched opponents. Jrcar and his partner Tony IMO are very good players and if the beginning of his AAR you mentioned is correct their opponents didn't have much experience. Hence "clubbing baby seals"? I haven't followed it in a long time but you'll see a few of my posts early and felt that their opponents made a number of mistakes that more seasoned players may not have.


It's funny you mention Jrcar, I followed his Aussies vs Amis AAR when he and Tony were the Allies and they were able do do an outstanding number on their opponents and many times mentioned the political thinking behind their moves. I've long admired the way them two play the game.

That will be enough from me in as I'd like not to derail the thread from the OPs intent. Thanks guys! [:)]
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bigred
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by bigred »

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
ORIGINAL: Amoral

Burma has excellent defensive terrain. If you have been building forts in your front line bases you should only need 1 division for each 3 of his to hold the line. Prepare your fallback positions, but try and hold for another year.

The big question is what are you doing in other theatres. If he has every single soldier in Burma how are you going to punish him?

I'm talking about the clear terrain in the central part of Burma. Pretty crappy defensive terrain, although I have Magwe, Shwebo and Mandalay built up to level 4 forts.

As far as other theaters, I don't have any meaningful place to hit him without triggering special reinforcements. I could invade India, but why? It's of marginal value and triggers swarms of extra reinforcements. Same holds true for the parts of Australia I don't already control. South Pacific ventures are pretty pointless too. I hold New Caledonia, but what is the value of heading off to Fiji and Samoa?

The only place that might be of significance is Adak, which he recently took back from me. I think my best option is to just lay low and dig in at key locations in the SRA and now, with the looming fall of Burma, Thailand.
Remember Magwe has some ability to supply itself because of the refinery. If u can get to level 7 fort ad pleny of AA you should be able to hold until late 43.
---bigred---

IJ Production mistakes--
tm.asp?m=2597400
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by bigred »

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

My allied opponent has apparently thrown all his available resources into the Burma theater and it has caught me by surprise - so much so that I am thinking of abandoning central Burma (even Magwe) and pulling back to a line roughly along the bases Rangoon/Moulmeim/Raheng.

In early/mid 42, I was so concerned about defending the SRA that I basically ignored Burma. I had thought that an advance through the Burmese jungle was virtually impossible, so I defended the central Burma bases very sparsely.

It is now Nov 42 and a sea of allied units is slowly, but steadily advancing from Imphal toward Katha and Shwebo.

I hold Akyab with the 4th Div and 143rd Rgt. The hex to the NE of Akyab is held by the 14th and 20th Divs, the 21st Mixed Bde, the 65th Bde and the 112th Rgt. The hex to the E is held by the 21st Div and the 4th Rgt. I am confident I can hold here - for a bit.

The problem lies in central Burma. All I have here are 5 Thai infantry divisions, the bulk of the 14th Army (16th and 48th Divs plus all of the army's tank and artillery support units), four Southern Army infantry divisions (1st, 8th, 9th and 10th) and 4 Southern Army artillery units. Based on recon, he has a horde that would make Genghis Kahn proud.

To top it off, I had been ignorant of the unlimited stacking at level 9 airfields (I had thought that anything above 450 engines would result in overstacking penalties). I discovered this when I noticed that my opponent has over 700 aircraft (over half of which I estimate to be transports and 4Es) based at Calcutta and suffers virtually no Ops losses each turn. In short - I'm pretty sure I am completely toast in this theater.

My question is this: Is the Magwe oil center worth quite possibly losing the LCUs I have in Burma? Should I cut my losses and fall back to the Rangoon/Moulmein/Raheng line? Or should I stay and fight?
Concerning calcutta and Chittagong. IIRC you may be able to bombard both these bases if his nav air is weak..If he attacks thru jungle into n burma in late 42 one response is to counter attack into chittagong and paradrop inland to disrupt his supply flow down the akyab trail.
---bigred---

IJ Production mistakes--
tm.asp?m=2597400
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Jim Stevens
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Jim Stevens »

Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

What exactly is Khyberbill and why do I see it so often in subjects?
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Quixote
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RE: Strategic Question (No Khyberbill Please)

Post by Quixote »

What exactly is Khyberbill and why do I see it so often in subjects?


Khyberbill is Icedawg's opponent. He's a solid player who's been around since UV (I think) but who hasn't posted much in the past year or two. He used to be a pretty frequent contributor to the forums.
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