ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

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obvert
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes.

Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups?
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fcharton
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by fcharton »

Hi Erik

There's a glitch in your 1945 figures, you reported the reinforcements for 44 (893) instead of those for 45 (1676), the total is correct, though.
ORIGINAL: obvert
Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.

I think you have the figures in Tracker plane production tab: under the TBO.YTA column, you two figures : the total number of planes, and the number you need to build, the difference is the number of planes that arrive as reinforcements throughout the game. For instance, in scen 2, the british avenger II are 0 (12), which mean the twelve of them arrive as reinforcements.

In my opinion, there is no need to take withdrawing squadrons into account. The point of this analysis is to show what kind of losses the Allies can sustain before having to cut operations down. If you reach that level, as the allies, your squadrons will withdraw empty anyway.

Francois
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by catwhoorg »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

ORIGINAL: obvert

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Wow, and I've never gotten planes in October 41! How did you do that? [;)]

It's been so long since really playing through the Allied side for me I'm not sure how often groups arrive unfilled, but most Allied players have mentioned that the groups usually do come complete and from what I can remember that seems right. That was the entire reason for starting this process.

If there is more variability in this then I guess this list is not as useful as I'd hoped.

1942 ... stupid fat fingers.

I'd have to check if they were all bombers, or some fighter groups.
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg




I literally just received some groups with 1-2 planes as the allies against the AI.
(October 1941)

Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes.

Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups?

Just did a fast check at the USAAF F unit arriving in '42. Only 5 arrived with the full 25. Actually one had 32. Others vary much. 23, 18/17, 12, 6 , 2 being the most common numbers that the different groups arrives with. If u want it accurate then i fear u hafta go through them individually.

Rasmus
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obvert
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Hi Erik

There's a glitch in your 1945 figures, you reported the reinforcements for 44 (893) instead of those for 45 (1676), the total is correct, though.
ORIGINAL: obvert
Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.

I think you have the figures in Tracker plane production tab: under the TBO.YTA column, you two figures : the total number of planes, and the number you need to build, the difference is the number of planes that arrive as reinforcements throughout the game. For instance, in scen 2, the british avenger II are 0 (12), which mean the twelve of them arrive as reinforcements.

In my opinion, there is no need to take withdrawing squadrons into account. The point of this analysis is to show what kind of losses the Allies can sustain before having to cut operations down. If you reach that level, as the allies, your squadrons will withdraw empty anyway.

Francois

Thanks. I'll correct that. The first was without the Soviets I think and I didn't change the top number.

Yeah, all of this has been done without tracker so far as I just wanted to dig through the groups first and do it manually. Kind of let me get a feel for it. I also have more trouble 'seeing' the details in tracker, simply due to the visuals. I don't do as well with things that look like spreadsheets.

I'll check it out though as I continue.
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obvert
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Walloc
ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




Later there are lots and lots of bomber groups which are just HQ cadre. Two planes.

Since this is only fighters though, is that also true of fighter groups?

Just did a fast check at the USAAF F unit arriving in '42. Only 5 arrived with the full 25. Actually one had 32. Others vary much. 23, 18/17, 12, 6 , 2 being the most common numbers that the different groups arrives with. If u want it accurate then i fear u hafta go through them individually.

Rasmus

Insteresting.

I wonder if there is variability in these numbers or if they always come the same, for instance if one P-40E unit always arrives with 12 out of 25?
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janh
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by janh »

Nice work, obvert! One kind of knows that there is a lot in the queue all the time, but seeing these totals black on blue still gives a different feel to it. And this is only the F part, the bombers are surely just as impressive.
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Cap Mandrake
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by Cap Mandrake »

Many Allied fighter squadrons in 43 arrive without a full complement. A good example are teh FM-1 equipped squadrons which arrive even before "production" starts.

I had always assumed that arriving understrength squadrons had something to do with depleted pools....but quite possibly I made this up.
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obvert
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by obvert »

I took a quick look in the editor and it does seem there are some that don't arrive as full. I won't be able to edit to each partially full unit, but I'll have a look later at tracker and the Editor again and see if it's possible to approximate the numbers better.

In the meantime I'll be working toward an 'average' Japanese production schedule.
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Walloc (Rasmus) pointed out that I've not included the upgrade to the P-38 line factory for the next model. If the Allied players can confirm this is how it works then I'll adjust those numbers.

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.

PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43

FIGHTERS

USAAF
P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
20/month x 6 months = 120

P-38J
10/month x 1 month = 10

As its 3 seperate factories in LA they will upgrade and continue to produce. U set it up as replacements(stopping at X date), not production aka once the G stops u dont add the 20 G model that will upgrade to the H model and keep producing and so on.

So IMO it should look like this, not counting in that factories doesnt necesarrily upgrade on day one. So while overall numbers are right the individual numbers of each model can vary depending on day of upgrades in each different game.

P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
40/month x 6 months = 240

P-38J
50/month x 1 month = 50

Kind regards,

Rasmus

This is missing P-38L production which would be 80 planes/month beginning with 44/06 until wars´ end.

P-38J production is 50 planes/month beginning with 43/12 for 6 months, thats 300, not 50.

Then theres P51B production beginning 44/03 @ 30/month, after that P51D beginning 44/11 @ 120/month (the upgrading B plus the 90 D R&D), after that the P51H beginning 45/09 @ 250/month (the upgrading D plus the 130 H R&D).


Great effort obvert, but the xls linked by Skyros practically covers everything already.




Edit: Should there still be doubt: Yes, the factories upgrade to the most recent model at production start date immediately and completely. So for example all 50 P-38J change to L version on 44/06, adding to the 30 R&D, resulting in a total per month production of 80 beginning 44/06.
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This is missing P-38L production which would be 80 planes/month beginning with 44/06 until wars´ end.

P-38J production is 50 planes/month beginning with 43/12 for 6 months, thats 300, not 50.

Then theres P51B production beginning 44/03 @ 30/month, after that P51D beginning 44/11 @ 120/month (the upgrading B plus the 90 D R&D), after that the P51H beginning 45/09 @ 250/month (the upgrading D plus the 130 H R&D).


Great effort obvert, but the xls linked by Skyros practically covers everything already.

Agreed as such Lobaron, but as he is doing the figurs in yearly intervals. If u set P-38J to 300 and not 50 u will include 44 production in the 43 production figurs. Should be 50 in 43 and 250 in 44, as long as its done in yearly intevals. Then as u say 80 from the time the P-38L starts production/replacement.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by LoBaron »

Got it Rasmus. I did not notice you were already adapting production figures to the format used by obvert. [:)]

Still, thats a whole lot of fighters missing in the charts.
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by LoBaron »

Just if this has been missed in the heat of the discussion: The complete production spreadsheet is at the bottom of this thread:

tm.asp?m=2576157&mpage=1&key=&#3282207
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Walloc
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by Walloc »

Yeah, as i said to Erik in my PM he partly pasted from. i would check each case of allied factories. There are problems as u also point out in several of his figurs. Im just lazy, so i just pointed out the problem in general and let him do all the work [;)]

Kind regards,

Rasmus
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
ORIGINAL: obvert

Walloc (Rasmus) pointed out that I've not included the upgrade to the P-38 line factory for the next model. If the Allied players can confirm this is how it works then I'll adjust those numbers.

Also, Alfred mentions that some groups don't come with complete TOE for the Allies? I had thought the arriving groups were complete, unlike the Japanese where they routinely come with 2 planes.

I'd like to get the details more or less correct, but now also get up some estimates for the Japanese side, which will come in the next day.

PRODUCTION - JAN 43 through DEC 43

FIGHTERS

USAAF
P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
20/month x 6 months = 120

P-38J
10/month x 1 month = 10

As its 3 seperate factories in LA they will upgrade and continue to produce. U set it up as replacements(stopping at X date), not production aka once the G stops u dont add the 20 G model that will upgrade to the H model and keep producing and so on.

So IMO it should look like this, not counting in that factories doesnt necesarrily upgrade on day one. So while overall numbers are right the individual numbers of each model can vary depending on day of upgrades in each different game.

P-38G
20/month x 5 months = 100

P-38H
40/month x 6 months = 240

P-38J
50/month x 1 month = 50

Kind regards,

Rasmus

This is missing P-38L production which would be 80 planes/month beginning with 44/06 until wars´ end.

P-38J production is 50 planes/month beginning with 43/12 for 6 months, thats 300, not 50.

Then theres P51B production beginning 44/03 @ 30/month, after that P51D beginning 44/11 @ 120/month (the upgrading B plus the 90 D R&D), after that the P51H beginning 45/09 @ 250/month (the upgrading D plus the 130 H R&D).


Great effort obvert, but the xls linked by Skyros practically covers everything already.




Edit: Should there still be doubt: Yes, the factories upgrade to the most recent model at production start date immediately and completely. So for example all 50 P-38J change to L version on 44/06, adding to the 30 R&D, resulting in a total per month production of 80 beginning 44/06.

Thanks LoBaron. I'll change those.

This for me is just a better method for seeing what is happening. I like things organized more visually, and I don't do as well with spreadsheet data, so it's a selfish effort really. Maybe it'll be a helpful format to someone else as well, I hope.

I do hope to continue to improve the mistakes and oversights so at least it's as correct as is possible without looking through each individual unit to see what the incoming numbers are. I'll have a look at the spreadsheet more thoroughly soon to see if there are places to draw some more accurate data from for certain airframe types. As this is not organized by type but by calendar and group it may be hard to do that.

I guess it's best to think of the arriving groups as a likely high estimate for airframe totals.

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obvert
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Yeah, as i said to Erik in my PM he partly pasted from. i would check each case of allied factories. There are problems as u also point out in several of his figurs. Im just lazy, so i just pointed out the problem in general and let him do all the work [;)]

Kind regards,

Rasmus

Thanks!

The figures with upgrading factories are simply something I didn't realize existed on the Allied side. Been a while and when I played the Allied I was probably less than interested in airframe numbers agains the AI.

I fixed the P-38 variants as you pointed out, and the P-51 line up to the P-51D. For the P-51H LoBaron advocates 250/month but the number shown in game would be different if carrying over the P-51D factories. Would the total be 292 + 150 = 442/month?

If I'm still playing by then for either side I don't really care anyway, I'm just happy! [;)]

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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by chuckj118 »

I am currently at 12/44 in a boosted Japan PBM game as the allies. I can tell you that many squadrons appear without having a full compliment of aircraft as several others have mentioned. The aircraft that enter the game via squadrons are very significant however.

In this game I have experienced some fighter shortages, particularly with the US Army. I have checked historical records and the numbers of entering planes appear to be quite accurate. I feel my shortages are due to several factors...

1) The boosted Japanese air forces have caused higher losses.
2) In the real war disabled and destroyed aircraft were cannibalized to keep planes flying. Is this reflected in the game?
3) I think the attrition rates for ground aircraft may be a bit high.

Of course, it is hard to tell exactly what is happening, overall AE does a great job!
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: obvert

I fixed the P-38 variants as you pointed out, and the P-51 line up to the P-51D. For the P-51H LoBaron advocates 250/month but the number shown in game would be different if carrying over the P-51D factories. Would the total be 292 + 150 = 442/month?

If I'm still playing by then for either side I don't really care anyway, I'm just happy! [;)]

Production
30 P 51 B factory/production, upgrading to P 51H through P 51D
90 P 51 D factory/production, upgrading to P 51H
130 P 51H factory/production
= 250

Replacement of P51H 162. So 250+162= 412 P 51H

Remember only factories/production upgrade not replacement. The difference between 412 and 442 is the 30 replacement of P 51D that doesnt upgrade as its replacements. It just stops. Yeah its tricky when there is both production and replacements.

Kind regards,

Rasmus
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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by geofflambert »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend.[;)] But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..[:D]

Yes, leave the snide remarks to me. I'll make one as soon as I finish examining all of it and comprehending it. Not. [:(]

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RE: ALLIED FIGHTERS - The Numbers: 41-45

Post by RogerJNeilson »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, at first I was going to make some sort of snide remark about you having too much time on your hand and in sore need of a girlfriend.[;)] But after reading through the numbers found your charts to be very informative and useful. So, thanks and just forget about that girlfriend..[:D]

Well, we're engaged now, so I have a bit more time until the 'planning' begins in ernest. [;)]

I am a teacher, so these first few weeks of summer I can do some things at leisure before my other projects are in full swing.

Obvert you have my sympathy, I was a teacher for 36 years and count myself lucky I am no longer one with the madness of the current regime. Enjoy your summer, you will have earned it.

Roger
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