Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Chickenboy
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Chickenboy »

It must be you and your game / game settings. My experiences (as a Japanese player) re: Allied torpedo efficacy mirror those described above already. There were a few hits (on a CV too) prior to 1943. January 1, 1943 has resulted in a steady improvement in Allied dog torpedo efficacy. I'm probably losing a ship of some sort every other day now. If my CVs were unfortunate enough to stumble into an undetected Allied dog submarine, I'd get stung.
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Titanwarrior89 »

For the guys who gave positive reinforcement I thank you.......and all was noted......for the guys who just don't want to hear it but would like to be listen too when they run a thread[>:]  Have a nice day.  I am done crying![:-][:D]
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Shark7
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Shark7 »

You are as frustrated as the real life sub commanders were with the defective torpedo fuses. This is the reason that they had to completely redesign the fuses during 1942...more often than not the torpedo would just bounce off the hull of the target with no detonation.
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crsutton
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by crsutton »

This has all been said before. There are a few things about the sub war for the Allies that are not right. However, it is as it is and there will not be a fix in stock. The good folks at Da Babes have made some fixes and I think JWE retrofitted some of them to the stock scenarios and you can download them. Mostly these fixes have to do with Japanese ASW and the way Japanese escorts fire off DC in the late game.

However some other things are not going to change.

Your experiences with duds is both frustrating and accurate. But if you read the AARs you will see that many Alled players have had successes against major Japanese warships. In my own campaign, by late 44 I have probably torpedoed a dozen or more Japanese CVs and BBs (but never sunk any) and have sunk a few CA and CLs as well. You will get some hits.

Most annoying thing to me is the targeting formula. If the enemy has an escorted convoy then my subs tend to target the escort over the valuable cargo ships. And, my subs almost aways miss the escorts.

So, bottom line is sub play is fun but you really should not expect to win the war with your subs. When you do nail an important ship, it sure does feel good.

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Lecivius
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Lecivius »

I thought the same thing.  Then I hit the Hiryu with 2 between Canton & Baker in Aug. 42.  It 'can' happen, just doesn't very darned often :P
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Miller
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Miller »

I lost 3 CVs to Allied subs in my last game and 2 so far and others damaged in my current game, so it does happen.
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Chickenboy
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Most annoying thing to me is the targeting formula. If the enemy has an escorted convoy then my subs tend to target the escort over the valuable cargo ships.

This was explained by a Dev a year or so ago and is intentional. Sub captains high in aggression will tend to 'press the attack' through the screen to get to the juicy targets beyond the escort. Captains lower in aggression will give up earlier in the hunt and fire a few shots at the escort instead. The higher speed of the escorts (relative to the juicy xAK, xAP, TK, AO etc. being escorted) makes a hit less likely.
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LoBaron
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

NO, I am not saying there is a CV Hull conspiracy.....I am saying if and when my subs launch a torpedo and it exsplodes it usually against a lesser target...that is all nothing more nothing less. But 99% of the time if a Japanese CV pop's into the picture and sub launches the torpedo will not fire. I know the answer before I see played out. I no what I see, and I KNOW what happens into 43' and 44'.
ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89
[...]In my opinion this part of the game is deficient.....Right now subs being trained up...commander/leaders with decent rating and its still awaste...then torps that only seem to work against less important. Game is now in Mid Dec 42.[...]

Every allied player knows the feeling when hitting major combatants early war.

You are suspecting a CV hull conspiracy? Please don´t tell me that was meant in earnest. [8|]

Also you chose a weird time to complain. You only got a couple of days to go until it gets better. My sink (not hit) rate with MK14s is probably one ship
every 2-3 days in late ´43, for about a year already, and I don´t consider myself the best silent service player.

Besides damageing fleet CVs 3-4 times, we sank a CVL, a CVE and a BB with sub launched torps.



The issue in this case is not game-mechanic but perception related. I will try to show you why.


Ask yourself what the relation is between major combatants and what you call "lesser targets". This relation is directly
proportional to your chances to get into an attack position on the respective vessels. It is probably around 1:75+ Major Targets:Lesser Targets.

Consider that warships, even large ones as fleet CVs are usually much harder to hit than the 24/7 prey.

The IJN CVs have a mvr value between 22 (poor Shinano) and 33 (Hyriu/Soryu class), a topspeed lowest at 24, but
usually ranging from 28-33kts. And they probably need an average of 3-4 torps for an assured kill.

Now compare this to the average IJN xAK max speed usually about 12kts, at best those few 18kts Kyushu Cargo runners,
and add to that mvr values not an inch better than the carriers. Close to all of them can be sunk with 1-2 torps or
deck gun.
Then think about the CVs driven by high exp and high skill commanders - no Japanese player neglects his carriers, while the usual
AK captain runs around with 15-20 naval skill. In addition the crew exp delta between those two classes is usually extreme.

Now take into account that it is in hindsight very difficult to discern if you just missed the target in a specific instance, or whether
the torpedo was a dud. It is not so easy to discern as one might think, at least I made this experience while bitnin into my keyboard
after another failed attack on a IJN warship...

And finally consider the difference in excitement when you see the crosshairs pointed at a CV compared to the usual AK or PB.

So to sum it up:

- A CV is rare, the relation attacks on CVs to attacks on AKs is probably worse than 1:50, and this is a conservative guess.
- It has a much higher chance to evade attack as the ship is faster, the commander is better, the crew has more exp.
- In case of a single hit an AK has a rough 50% chance to sink, a CV might just laugh and shrug it off.
- If you dud on a CV you might want to throw something at something. If you dud on an AK you don´t care to much,
usually you have forgotten it pretty soon, and theres a nice chance that the second torp hits as well and sinks it.


Your enemy CVs are much tougher to find, engage, hit, and sink than your enemy AKs. With torps at 90% dud rate even more.
This is what you see. Thats neither news nor is it mysterious.
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Titanwarrior89 »

I see your point LoBaron.....I would probley have to agree. Its just PB hull(BOOM!)......CV hull(thud!).[:D] and its frustrating[;)]
ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

NO, I am not saying there is a CV Hull conspiracy.....I am saying if and when my subs launch a torpedo and it exsplodes it usually against a lesser target...that is all nothing more nothing less. But 99% of the time if a Japanese CV pop's into the picture and sub launches the torpedo will not fire. I know the answer before I see played out. I no what I see, and I KNOW what happens into 43' and 44'.
ORIGINAL: LoBaron




Every allied player knows the feeling when hitting major combatants early war.

You are suspecting a CV hull conspiracy? Please don´t tell me that was meant in earnest. [8|]

Also you chose a weird time to complain. You only got a couple of days to go until it gets better. My sink (not hit) rate with MK14s is probably one ship
every 2-3 days in late ´43, for about a year already, and I don´t consider myself the best silent service player.

Besides damageing fleet CVs 3-4 times, we sank a CVL, a CVE and a BB with sub launched torps.



The issue in this case is not game-mechanic but perception related. I will try to show you why.


Ask yourself what the relation is between major combatants and what you call "lesser targets". This relation is directly
proportional to your chances to get into an attack position on the respective vessels. It is probably around 1:75+ Major Targets:Lesser Targets.

Consider that warships, even large ones as fleet CVs are usually much harder to hit than the 24/7 prey.

The IJN CVs have a mvr value between 22 (poor Shinano) and 33 (Hyriu/Soryu class), a topspeed lowest at 24, but
usually ranging from 28-33kts. And they probably need an average of 3-4 torps for an assured kill.

Now compare this to the average IJN xAK max speed usually about 12kts, at best those few 18kts Kyushu Cargo runners,
and add to that mvr values not an inch better than the carriers. Close to all of them can be sunk with 1-2 torps or
deck gun.
Then think about the CVs driven by high exp and high skill commanders - no Japanese player neglects his carriers, while the usual
AK captain runs around with 15-20 naval skill. In addition the crew exp delta between those two classes is usually extreme.

Now take into account that it is in hindsight very difficult to discern if you just missed the target in a specific instance, or whether
the torpedo was a dud. It is not so easy to discern as one might think, at least I made this experience while bitnin into my keyboard
after another failed attack on a IJN warship...

And finally consider the difference in excitement when you see the crosshairs pointed at a CV compared to the usual AK or PB.

So to sum it up:

- A CV is rare, the relation attacks on CVs to attacks on AKs is probably worse than 1:50, and this is a conservative guess.
- It has a much higher chance to evade attack as the ship is faster, the commander is better, the crew has more exp.
- In case of a single hit an AK has a rough 50% chance to sink, a CV might just laugh and shrug it off.
- If you dud on a CV you might want to throw something at something. If you dud on an AK you don´t care to much,
usually you have forgotten it pretty soon, and theres a nice chance that the second torp hits as well and sinks it.


Your enemy CVs are much tougher to find, engage, hit, and sink than your enemy AKs. With torps at 90% dud rate even more.
This is what you see. Thats neither news nor is it mysterious.
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Alfred
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Alfred »

This is one thread where Don Bowen comments on the targetting routines.

tm.asp?m=2368849&mpage=1&key=sub%2Cattack&#2368952

Ironic that there the complaint was that the subs concentrated on capital ships and were overlooking merchantmen.

Alfred
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Titanwarrior89 »

Thanks Alfred....interesting.
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ckammp
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by ckammp »

For comparison, some historical data:

Japanese CV/CVL/CVE sunk by US subs in 1941 = 0

Japanese CV/CVL/CVE sunk by US subs in 1942 = 0

Japanese CV/CVL/CVE sunk by US subs in 1943 = 1

- CVE Chuyo, 4 Dec 43, by Sailfish

Japanese CV/CVL/CVE sunk by US subs in 1944 = 7

- CV Taiho, 19 Jun 44, by Albacore
- CV Shokaku, 19 Jun 44, by Cavalla
- CVE Unyo, 17 Sep 44, by Barb
- CVE Akitsu Maru, 15 Nov 44, by Queenfish
- CVE Shinyo, 17 Nov 44, by Spadefish
- CV Shinano, 29 Nov 44, by Archerfish
- CV Unryu, 19 Dec 44, by Redfish

Looks like your in-game results match up pretty well with historical results.
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Titanwarrior89
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Titanwarrior89 »

I can't cry about historical data......I will shut up now[:D][;)]
ORIGINAL: ckammp

For comparison, some historical data:

Japanese CV/CVL/CVE sunk by US subs in 1941 = 0

Japanese CV/CVL/CVE sunk by US subs in 1942 = 0

Japanese CV/CVL/CVE sunk by US subs in 1943 = 1

- CVE Chuyo, 4 Dec 43, by Sailfish

Japanese CV/CVL/CVE sunk by US subs in 1944 = 7

- CV Taiho, 19 Jun 44, by Albacore
- CV Shokaku, 19 Jun 44, by Cavalla
- CVE Unyo, 17 Sep 44, by Barb
- CVE Akitsu Maru, 15 Nov 44, by Queenfish
- CVE Shinyo, 17 Nov 44, by Spadefish
- CV Shinano, 29 Nov 44, by Archerfish
- CV Unryu, 19 Dec 44, by Redfish

Looks like your in-game results match up pretty well with historical results.
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zzodr
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by zzodr »

1000lb bombs work good against CVs. [:)]
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Miller
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by Miller »

Just had 3 CVs attacked on the same day, 2 hit, its Oct 44.......
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

You must be a jap player.
ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

[>:]

Nope
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

By the war Jeff, I am looking at the game system Ive played probley as long as your self and maybe longer...its not a Allied or a Japanese player issue against one to the other...I am speaking of the system that maybe in historical error. But I am Not looking for your or anyone else's approval/disaproval. I am just stating something thats happening in my pbem games -game after game from Dec 42 until late 43. So like you said[>:]
ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

[>:]

It is very frustrating to lose a CV as either side to a sub. It is very frustrating as the Allies to have a capital ship in your sights, and only have it end up firing a dud....then it seems like the next sub attack is a success vs an AMc...

All I meant what was it happens, and someone always complains about it.

Pretty accurate representation of real life results if you ask me...the dude rate that is.
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

NO, I am not saying there is a CV Hull conspiracy.....I am saying if and when my subs launch a torpedo and it exsplodes it usually against a lesser target...that is all nothing more nothing less. But 99% of the time if a Japanese CV pop's into the picture and sub launches the torpedo will not fire. I know the answer before I see played out. I no what I see, and I KNOW what happens into 43' and 44'.
ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89
[...]In my opinion this part of the game is deficient.....Right now subs being trained up...commander/leaders with decent rating and its still awaste...then torps that only seem to work against less important. Game is now in Mid Dec 42.[...]

Every allied player knows the feeling when hitting major combatants early war.

You are suspecting a CV hull conspiracy? Please don´t tell me that was meant in earnest. [8|]

Also you chose a weird time to complain. You only got a couple of days to go until it gets better. My sink (not hit) rate with MK14s is probably one ship
every 2-3 days in late ´43, for about a year already, and I don´t consider myself the best silent service player.

Besides damageing fleet CVs 3-4 times, we sank a CVL, a CVE and a BB with sub launched torps.

BTW, ask Bill and Hartwig how our torpedoes work against CVs. I don't seem to notice a difference. It may seem like it at times, but it seems pretty random on the success/dud rate to me against any target.
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crsutton
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Most annoying thing to me is the targeting formula. If the enemy has an escorted convoy then my subs tend to target the escort over the valuable cargo ships.

This was explained by a Dev a year or so ago and is intentional. Sub captains high in aggression will tend to 'press the attack' through the screen to get to the juicy targets beyond the escort. Captains lower in aggression will give up earlier in the hunt and fire a few shots at the escort instead. The higher speed of the escorts (relative to the juicy xAK, xAP, TK, AO etc. being escorted) makes a hit less likely.

Hmmmmm.... I doubt it since every sub that I have has the highest aggression officer that I can find.

I think that is is more the result of a fix that they made early in the game. If I recall a lot of Allied players were complaining that their American DDs were just getting mauled by Japanese subs in the early months of the game. It has been a long time so my memory is vague but I think that the chance of a "hit" on DDs and other escort type ships was greatly reduced. But it was a case of getting what we wished for as it seems to effect shots at all escorts across the board-including the slower Japanese PBs.

But the issue for me me has always been that my sub commanders opt to shoot at escorts over any other target. Simply the best thing any Japanese player can do is to have at least one escort no matter how crappy with a convoy. This will greatly reduce Allied kills in itself and makes the Allied sub effort a no go.

I realize that this is not the case with the AI, where Japanese ships are easily caught and sunk by Allied subs, but in an email game....
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USSAmerica
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RE: Seriously Now.......I mean Really....Really

Post by USSAmerica »

I always figured that this was a result of the escorts protecting the transports. If the sub is detected the escorts attempt to intervene between the sub and the transports, so the only shot the sub has is at the escort.
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