Movement in contact with the enemy

The development team behind the award-winning games Decisive Campaigns: From Warsaw To Paris and Advanced Tactics is back with a new and improved game engine that focuses on the decisive year and theater of World War II! Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue simulates the German drive to Stalingrad and into the Caucasus of the summer of 1942, as well as its May preludes (2nd Kharkov offensive, Operation Trappenjagd) and also the Soviet winter counter-offensive (Operation Uranus) that ended with the encirclement of 6th Army in Stalingrad and the destruction of the axis minor armies. With many improvements including the PBEM++ system, this is a release to watch for wargamers!

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Hartford688
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Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by Hartford688 »

One more piece of insight from people who have the game, if you would be so kind:

How well does the game reflect the difficulty of withdrawing or manoevering while in contact with the enemy?

Looking at a video of the gameplay, it looked as if both sides were able to easily disengage units, and redeploy the units to make attacks elsewhere across the line. While this facilitates concentrating attacks, it would seem a bit unrealistic (a beef I had against Battles in Normandy). After all, withdrawing while in contact is viewed as a particularly hard manoever.

Just wondering how well people who are playing feel this is reflected in the game (I don't want to base my decision on eyeballing one video!). Do you feel the manoever constraints are broadly realistic (or put another way, produce a broadly realistic result)?

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AndyG1
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by AndyG1 »

Very realistic! Just completed the Voronehz scenario, where I JUST managed to close the pincer on a large Russian formation (3 hexes from top to bottom with lots of units).....but it slowed me down so much as my other units had to skirt top and bottom to get past - that I fell short of Voronehz by one hex 6 days (3 turns) laterwithin the timeframe and the Russian got a Minor Victory.

If you check out the downloadable manual you can see the pnealty system in place for ZOC and movement on that basis.
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sol_invictus
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by sol_invictus »

You can also get ambused if you stumble into enemy units and suffer a combat penalty. I would like it if there was a chance for the non-phasing player/AI to get an attack of opportunity when an enemy unit withdrawls out of a zoc like in TOAW. I am not aware of any penalty for withdrawing from an enemy zoc as long as you don't move directly into another enemy zoc.
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Hartford688
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by Hartford688 »

Thanks gents

Ah yes...I can download the manual - makes my earlier post re the manual a bit of a d'oh! moment [8|]

And a very handsome manual it is too.

Arinvald -I agree with you very much - looking in the manual there is indeed no penalty for withdrawing from an enemy ZOC, just for entering. That would explain a bit what I was seeing. I would prefer some cost - an attack of opportunity by the opponent, loss of MP, or (in games where it exists) a morale or best of all a unit cohesion penalty.

The whole being able to walk away at will reminds me a bit of "Asterix in Britain" where the Britons drove the Romans nuts by wandering off mid-battle each afternoon for a tea break.
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sol_invictus
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by sol_invictus »

I agree, at a minimum there should be an AP cost and I would also like a small Rediness reduction for withdrawing from enemy contact. Seems way to easy and painless atm.
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ComradeP
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by ComradeP »

There would be many variables to consider: the pursuit capabilities of the enemy unit adjacent to your unit, the mobility of your own unit, how many AP's are left and so forth.

Keeping in mind that if you don't want a ZOC penalty you still have to move your unit back a hex and you thus always spend AP's (you just spend more if you get a ZOC penalty), the relative AP cost of disengaging is higher than in many other games.
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sol_invictus
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by sol_invictus »

That is true so I guess in a way there is a cost but I think it should be a bit more difficult than present. I agree that it would be great if the cost to disengage was dependent on the unit type being disengaged from. Something like an Armor zoc vs an Infantry zoc AP cost.
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AndyG1
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by AndyG1 »

From P37 of the manual. There are many variables taken into account when it comes to moving, not just ZOC -

4. MOVEMENT
Moving units costs Action Points (AP). The cost of movement depends on the
movement type of the unit and the landscape type that the unit is entering. The cost
of moving can be increased by entering enemy terrain and enemy Zone of Control
(ZOC) points, battle delay points, or rivers without bridges. The cost of moving can be
diminished by travelling over roads.
When a unit moves, it does so with the range of the slowest troop type it contains.
The range of the slowest troop type can be increased, however, if the unit contains
troop types capable of carrying slower units (for example Opel Blitz trucks can carry
infantry). The cost of entering a hex is a combination of movement type, landscape
type, and possibly any AP penalties on a hex (caused by ZOC, by the hex not being
pacified, or by effect of prolonged combat).
When fuel levels reach 0 or are close to 0, enough fuel may not be available for
mechanized or motorized formations. If you are out of fuel, AP costs for moving are
tripled. Offensive combat for these units is only at 1/3 normal strength and defensive
combat only at 2/3 normal strength.

In fact, tables and more information (including battle hex - battle delay points - which can slow you down on break out) are all in Section 4.

Also Weather:-
17.3. HEAVY PRECIPITATION
There is a 25% chance every round a major rain or snow event; the effect of this on
regular summer landscape is that it will turn the landscape to mud. Rain causes air units
to suffer an AP loss and decreased combat efficiency.
17.4. EFFECTS OF A MUD HEX
Mud hexes slow down motorized and mechanized movement as well as the movement
type used for supply. Units that are in low supply in a non-mud turn, might well be
out of supply in mud turn. See the Landscape Movement Costs table (Section 4.1) to
compare the differences.
Hartford688
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by Hartford688 »

AndyG1

Thanks, yes, read that. Lots of good factors. But I'm not sure how that addresses the point re withdrawing when engaged?
SteveD64
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by SteveD64 »

I had a strange situation that might be related to this discussion. A German infantry division in the front line was able to attack a pocketed Russian unit directly behind it, destroy it, and then (because it had enough AP's) attack a Russian unit in the front line and force it to retreat. The German unit was not required to move at all. I'm not sure if this going to be a common occurence but it seems strange with two day turns that a division can attack two entirely different hexes and not move out of it's original hex.

(I can rationalize this situation by imagining the pocketed Russian simply surrendered, allowing the German unit to turn around and attack at the front so it's no deal breaker in this case)
Pawsy
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by Pawsy »

Its quite satisfying when you do break out :-) I dont want to end up grinding my way forward thats not how it happened.
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AndyG1
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RE: Movement in contact with the enemy

Post by AndyG1 »

ORIGINAL: Hartford688

AndyG1

Thanks, yes, read that. Lots of good factors. But I'm not sure how that addresses the point re withdrawing when engaged?

"The cost of moving can be increased by entering enemy terrain and enemy Zone of Control
(ZOC) points"

On the top title bar there is a box for ZOC - the number in side varies depending on the ZOC's in effect from other units in the hex you highlight. Although not particularly clear in the Manual, the above extract seems to confirm that it's not just a case of 'you're next to an enemy unit therefore there's a fixed ZOC'. It appears to be far more than that (hence why have that box on the screen title page).

So withdrawing when engaged against a poorly supplied/low morale, damaged unit is going to be completely different vs a fresh experienced SS unit.

Having played to completion the Voronehz scenario, I definitely got a feel for that. But perhaps querying this direct with VR might put us on the right track?

Andy
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