Air Force Organization

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Commander Stormwolf
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Air Force Organization

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

It is wondered of the opinions of the ideal HQ organization of an air force,
there is a scenario being considered where the IJN and IJAAF have merged their air forces in the style of the RAF.

This way, pilots can be distributed at will to the best possible airframe types.

It is believed that the RAF organization was far superior to the Luftwaffe (tactical tasks assigned to Fighter command, strategic tasts to Bmr command,
and patrol duties to Coastal Command), and the airframe types distributed accordingly

for the JAF, these command and airframe types are considered to be ideal.
In this structure, aircraft are not used to support the army and navy operations, rather the army and navy are used to acquire airbases and provide logistic support (this way ground troops are subtended to the air forces, and so are navy ships)


Tactical Command

purpose: maintain supremacy of the air in areas of operations, and defend friendly airspace

types: Dogfighters, Interceptors, high speed reconnaissance, high speed strike

assets: AA batteries


Strategic Command

purpose: long-range reduction of industrial areas

types: long range escorts, heavy Bmr, long range-recon

assets: seaplane tenders


Torpedo command

purpose: naval interdiction

types: long range escorts, long range torpedo Bmr, long range Floatplane recon

assets: seaplane tenders


Mobile command

purpose: support

types: carrier fighers, carrier strike, floatplane recon

assets: surface warships


Anti-Submarine command

purpose: anti-submarine defence

types: heavy anti-submarine bmr

assets: anti-submarine patrol ships


Submarine command

purpose: sinking of enemy merchant ships

types: float bmr, float recon

assets: submarines



"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
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sandman455
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by sandman455 »

The separation of commands for navy and air force has very little to do with missions.

It has everything to do with support the aircraft require to sustain operations. If commands must sustain their own aircraft, then it is eminently logical that they should command their aircraft and personnel as well.

In the present day US Armed Forces the following branches have their own aircraft because they maintain the support to keep them flying:

Air Force
Navy
Army
Coast Guard


Brownie points for knowing which operates the largest number of aircraft.

As a side note, an edit to the WITP/AE that would not allow aircraft to draw support from the wrong military branch would be ultra-cool. As it is now, players must do it manually which isn't as fun as sticking a bunch of Betties at some remote base all ready to do missions and find out that they are unsupported.
Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)
Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

No.

The purpose of unifying the commands is to prevent the redundancy and inefficiency of the IJN/IJAAF

in a few ways:

1) the aircraft designs themselves (Army pilots were begging for the Reisen since 1940, and did not want to fly the oscar)
(Navy was using the Irving (317 mph) recon plane instead of the Dinah (391 mph)

2) the deployments (Navy was sending up zeroes to deal with the 4E reduction of Rabaul, when army Shoki or Toryu were more appropriate)

3) pilot utilization (Army had lots of experienced pilots at the start of the war, were in the wrong place at the wrong time (China, Manchuria)


none of these problems existed with the RAF, under one roof the best designs were chosen and pilots were deployed in a logical fashion

Imagine if all the Spitfires belonged to the Navy (and all the Hurricanes beloned to the Army)

Army general: All Hurricanes will be deployed in south, to protect the invasion sites

Royal Navy Admiral: Well not our spitfires, all 200 spitfires will be up protecting scapa flow in the north

The civil war between the IJN and IJA was a big problem

RAF also was divided up for specific tasks: (Fighter Command, BMR Command, and Coastal Command) instead of the stupid Luftflotte or AirFleet structure

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
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USSAmerica
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by USSAmerica »

[:D]
Mike

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Dili
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Dili »

"Civil war" always happens. In RAF "Bomber Harry" won over the others inside RAF. The Navy and USAAF fought over B-24 for ASW patrol.
Conflict will happens always because resources are limited.

To attack a ship you might use a level bomber to push the fighters to the high altitude, torpedo bombers and dive bombers to make the damage. And all this planes might be employed making general city bombing or support troops. You need escorts from air defense fighters to protect them.
Only in very specific situations: when the equipment can be employed in only one function or it is a very rich country it makes sense to have unique propose commands.
Think about an aircraft carrier. It has most of the missions and there is only one operational command.

an edit to the WITP/AE that would not allow aircraft to draw support from the wrong military branch would be ultra-cool.

Ditto.
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dr.hal
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by dr.hal »

Largest number? US Army.
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

"Civil war" always happens. In RAF "Bomber Harry" won over the others inside RAF.

Yep. The argument in RAF was How to best use the assets available.

The argument in IJN/IJA was .. no we won't use the rival's designs or co-operate together
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

And pilots like this had to suffer and pay the price (8 slides total, it's widescreen [8D] ---> scroll this way)

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"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

he goes on

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"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

he paid the price, having his leg shot off over rangoon - but he landed and survived the war

read some details about the January 1941 IJA vs IJN dogfight competition

there were a few conclusions:

1) the Ki-27 was totally obsolete
2) the Reisen was far superior to the Hayabusa
3) the Heinkel-100 was the most advanced design Japan had in its possession
4) the Shoki had a high rate of climb, but was a poor dogfighter

army pilots were saying:

*army pilot #1: " STOP MAKING US FLY THIS JUNK AND GIVE US THE REISEN LIKE THE NAVY DOES " [:o]

*army pilot #2" ...or make some decent inline engine fighters like all the europeans have*[:)]


army general: "no .. no.. we cannot use the navy's designs.. we must save face" [:-]

[8|]
"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf
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Dixie
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Dixie »

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

No.

The purpose of unifying the commands is to prevent the redundancy and inefficiency of the IJN/IJAAF

in a few ways:

1) the aircraft designs themselves (Army pilots were begging for the Reisen since 1940, and did not want to fly the oscar)
(Navy was using the Irving (317 mph) recon plane instead of the Dinah (391 mph)

2) the deployments (Navy was sending up zeroes to deal with the 4E reduction of Rabaul, when army Shoki or Toryu were more appropriate)

3) pilot utilization (Army had lots of experienced pilots at the start of the war, were in the wrong place at the wrong time (China, Manchuria)


none of these problems existed with the RAF, under one roof the best designs were chosen and pilots were deployed in a logical fashion

Imagine if all the Spitfires belonged to the Navy (and all the Hurricanes beloned to the Army)

Army general: All Hurricanes will be deployed in south, to protect the invasion sites

Royal Navy Admiral: Well not our spitfires, all 200 spitfires will be up protecting scapa flow in the north

The civil war between the IJN and IJA was a big problem

RAF also was divided up for specific tasks: (Fighter Command, BMR Command, and Coastal Command) instead of the stupid Luftflotte or AirFleet structure


Coastal Command: We really need some long range aircraft for convoy protection. Lancasters would be great.
Bomber Command (Played by Terminus in this historical re-enactment): No.
CC: How about Halifaxes?
BC: No.
CC: Well what about cutting back production of the Stirling so we could build more Sunderlands?
BC: No.


The 'Civil War' still took place in the RAF, not as cut-throat as IJN/IJA but still there. Photo-recon Spitfires, Merlin engines for Lancasters, the initial issues of the Mosquito, Long Range convoy protection, there are plenty of examples of poor relations in the RAF.

Could it also not be argued that the creation of 2 TAF and 3 TAF is a reorganisation (at least of some parts) of the RAF along the Luftwaffe lines? Composite groups with their own fighters, bombers and recce kites for tactical operations.
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Shark7
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

he paid the price, having his leg shot off over rangoon - but he landed and survived the war

read some details about the January 1941 IJA vs IJN dogfight competition

there were a few conclusions:

1) the Ki-27 was totally obsolete
2) the Reisen was far superior to the Hayabusa
3) the Heinkel-100 was the most advanced design Japan had in its possession
4) the Shoki had a high rate of climb, but was a poor dogfighter

army pilots were saying:

*army pilot #1: " STOP MAKING US FLY THIS JUNK AND GIVE US THE REISEN LIKE THE NAVY DOES " [:o]

*army pilot #2" ...or make some decent inline engine fighters like all the europeans have*[:)]


army general: "no .. no.. we cannot use the navy's designs.. we must save face" [:-]

[8|]

End result, you lose the war and still lose face.
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Commander Stormwolf
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

Coastal Command: We really need some long range aircraft for convoy protection. Lancasters would be great.
Bomber Command (Played by Terminus in this historical re-enactment): No.
CC: How about Halifaxes?
BC: No.
CC: Well what about cutting back production of the Stirling so we could build more Sunderlands?
BC: No.

That IS co-operation

All the assets being organized into a single purpose (and coastal command being totally neglected)

IJN needed torpedo planes to fight the USN, under the RAF concept no sallies would be built
and pilots would be trained for torpedo duty instead of ground support
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sandman455
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by sandman455 »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Largest number? US Army.



Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)
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sandman455
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by sandman455 »

ORIGINAL: USS America

[:D]

[:@]
Silence you.
You'd think I'd would have learned that

"No Logical Answer Survives Contact with the Commander"
Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)
Dili
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by Dili »

Yep. The argument in RAF was How to best use the assets available.

It was the Bomber Command that had political power to choose the assets.

What about 20000 Mosquitos or equivalent instead of Lancasters, Stirling, Halifax?
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by USSAmerica »

ORIGINAL: sandman455

ORIGINAL: USS America

[:D]

[:@]
Silence you.
You'd think I'd would have learned that

"No Logical Answer Survives Contact with the Commander"


I was mostly laughing at the unwashed masses immediately telling someone "No" when they have no idea who they are talking to, or why that person might know what they know. [:D]

The fact that you should be able to pick your targets for intelligent conversation a little better by now was just some "bonus amusement." [:'(]

Oh, and BTW, those are not official BC's in your picture. Official BC's were the black/gray plastic frames. They didn't issue wire frames generally until around 1990. I have pictures with the 100% effective BC's on my face somewhere. [:D]
Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

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sandman455
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by sandman455 »

What's really twisted is I still have those glasses in my night stand, along with 5-6 other pairs just like them. [8|]

I've been wearing contacts since 9th grade so that must have been a pretty bad head cold to get me to pull them out. Of course that goes without saying since standing SDO on the ship while she is underway, was only slightly better than being water boarded or so I was told.
ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: sandman455

ORIGINAL: USS America

[:D]

[:@]
Silence you.
You'd think I'd would have learned that

"No Logical Answer Survives Contact with the Commander"


I was mostly laughing at the unwashed masses immediately telling someone "No" when they have no idea who they are talking to, or why that person might know what they know. [:D]

The fact that you should be able to pick your targets for intelligent conversation a little better by now was just some "bonus amusement." [:'(]

Oh, and BTW, those are not official BC's in your picture. Official BC's were the black/gray plastic frames. They didn't issue wire frames generally until around 1990. I have pictures with the 100% effective BC's on my face somewhere. [:D]
Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)
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oldman45
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by oldman45 »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Largest number? US Army.

Yes, at least it used to be. [;)]
pmelheck1
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RE: Air Force Organization

Post by pmelheck1 »

The BCG's I was issued so many years ago where the black plastic with silver hardware with glass lenses. As for the largest number of planes, I think it depends on if your speaking of fixed wing or rotary wing aircraft and perhaps combat vs. non combat frames.
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