TF docking

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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BigDuke66
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RE: TF docking

Post by BigDuke66 »

Well if the port is overcrowded you have the manage it by yourself anyway and in your case you would simply undock those supply TFs to dock, replenish & undock your ASW group so you can then again dock those supply TFs.
But I speak of empty ports where TFs can dock and looking at the results also should dock but that simply don't dock.

Also how often would it be that you foster a whole ASW group(or any other more or less important TF) at a small port that is exactly then blocked when it needs to be replenished.
I can't imagine that this happens very often but thinking about all those small ports that are regular visited by small TFs to bring a bit supply and take some resources out especially early as Allied player who's taking as much as he can to saved in from Japan out of the DEI and later as Japan player who has to get out what he can from the DEI to keep his industry rolling.


To be honest I would love it when the feature could simply calculate the best TF type based on what I load and what ships I use so I can maximize my load/unload rates but it just doesn't do that, all it does is deny docking to TFs without looking at any circumstances except that it has to be a small port.
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LoBaron
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RE: TF docking

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
Also how often would it be that you foster a whole ASW group(or any other more or less important TF) at a small port that is exactly then blocked when it needs to be replenished.

All those small, valuable outposts acting as ASW, Sub, PT hubs - kept in operation with aux ship.
I´d rate the importance of those working flawless higher than loading/unloading delays any day.

As I said, I agree on what you are critizising, but I´d never accept a solution that trades faster
cargo handling for potential drawbacks for the ops described above.
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oldman45
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RE: TF docking

Post by oldman45 »

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66



Also how often would it be that you foster a whole ASW group(or any other more or less important TF) at a small port that is exactly then blocked when it needs to be replenished.

Murphy's Law says it will happen at the worst possible time. [;)]
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Don Bowen
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RE: TF docking

Post by Don Bowen »


I'm gone through the related code and (as much as I can recall) the design goals behind it.

Original WITP and early pre-release AE did not include any special docking/unloading code for TFs. The TFs attempted to dock and, if they could not, they did not load/unload.

Play testing pointed this out as a potential problem, so code was put in to allow TFs to load/unload without docking - albeit at a lower rate.

Concurrently, additional limits were set up for ports. This was a complex one. Even if TFs could unload large amounts of cargo "over the beach", the port itself had only limited ability to move and store this cargo. At some point the cargo just built up on the beach (waiting for land transport to move it) and the beaches became congested. So we put in non-docked cargo handling limits. Like docked limits, these depended on port size. Both were available, with docked being preferred and undocked never exceeding the docked rates.

Finally, a special check was put in for amphibious TFs at small ports to force them to undocked unloading. There was considerable debate over the details of this during play testing and the final result was a compromise that was probably not fully agreeable for anyone.

In retrospect, I think the calculation of the load/unload rates is a little low and the limits on port processing of over the beach cargo a little too tight. But that is just my opinion and I am no longer active on the AE support team.

A bit long winded but the bottom line is: I recommend that no changes be made to the calculations. Too great a chance of any change unbalancing things even more. Besides both the effect and relative number of occurences are small.

If any changes were to be made, they would have to be to both load/unload rates AND over-the-beach cargo handling limits. Changes to one or the other would be lost due to restriction of the unchanged item. But, if over-the-beach cargo limits were changed, we would throw the entire load/unload calculation out of balance (i.e. docking limits become superfluous). The only way to retain any sanity would be to limit ALL undocked loading/unloading to amphib TFs and give a specific (and tightly controlled) increase to over-the-beach cargo handling limits for naval support. This would be the right thing to do, in my opinion, but would completely remove the ability of non-amphibious TFs to load/unload when not docked. I have memories of the howling when this was attempted during development (especially since loaded TFs can not arbitrarily switch to amphib at the destination). All of this would come back to more tuning and (again, in my opinion) not solve the problem - just alter it so it was wrong in a different way.

All I got...
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BigDuke66
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RE: TF docking

Post by BigDuke66 »

Thanks for looking at it but changes in calculations are the last thing I would like to see at the moment.
Out of the 4 results I can only follow one of it(200 supply for docked cargo, exactly as written in the manual), all others don't seem to fit what's written in the manual or info is completely missing.
So no one can advise a change to the calculations unless we get a complete & clear picture of what each ship type does under the various circumstances(TF type, port level, docked vs. undocked, type of load, etc.)I really hope the chapter in the manual regarding this gets a complete overhaul.


All I would like to see is that the undocking feature is used only for those TF types that come into a port with the purpose to unload/load undocked and this type is the Amphibious TF.

All TFs that the player can make are their for a purpose and using cargo/transport/tanker TFs is for shuttling supply, resources, fuel, oil and troops between bases with the purpose of docking to load & unload.
Because if I don't want to let it dock especially at a small base that can't handle much cargo I make an Amphibious TF.


Another to solve this once and for all is to add a new feature similar to the Auto-Disband feature but this time for docking, this gives the player to turn of autodocking in case he wants the base free all the time.
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geofflambert
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RE: TF docking

Post by geofflambert »

Less sophisticated questions here:
I haven't noticed one way or the other since I started playing the beta, but oiler TFs used to keep docking when I didn't want them to (they were fully loaded, ordered not to retire and just biding their time in the port til they got other orders. This is really annoying, what is the reason for this?
Also what are the differences between Transport TFs and Cargo TFs, and between Cargo TFs and Amphibious TFs? I have a pretty good feel for Transport vs Amphibious, but I've never used the Cargo TF type.
Also is there any reason not to dock an Amphibious TF when possible? I haven't noticed any.

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geofflambert
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RE: TF docking

Post by geofflambert »

Oh, and one more, sometimes I've had trouble unloading heavy equipment on non-base beach hexes, and other times not. Is there any rule of thumb on this?

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geofflambert
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RE: TF docking

Post by geofflambert »

Sorry, I meant when using APA/AKA types.

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BigDuke66
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RE: TF docking

Post by BigDuke66 »

Don mentioned that aircraft have nothing to do with autodocking but they seem to have impact docking/undocking TFs.

I have a single ship cargo TF at Rangoon unloading, last turn it was docked, this turn it is undocked, all that happen was:
xAK Karoa detected by Japanese Dive Bomber at 54,53 near Rangoon
xAK Karoa snooped by Japanese Medium Bomber at 54,53 near Rangoon

opposite to this is a single ship cargo TF also in Rangoon but loading that didn't undock:
TF 681 snooped by Japanese Recon at 54,53 near Rangoon
xAK Hosang sights Japanese Dive Bomber at 54,53 near Rangoon

An air attack on Rangoon didn't happen in that turn.
The Hosang/TF681 wasn't docked last turn and I guess I docked it manually as I always go thru the TF list before processing a turn, maybe this is the reason why it didn't undock.
And the Karoa may have undocked because it was autodocked in Rangoon(with port level 4 is enough for autodocking).

But it also can be coming from the Detection level, Karoa DL is now 6/10 and was 10/10 last turn, that of the Hosang is 5/6 and was 2/5 last turn.
I really hope this comes from the DL as I think it makes a lot sense to undock a TF that has clearly drawn the attention of the enemy on it.
Can you say something to that Don?
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