Let me know if i understood...

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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GreyJoy
Posts: 6750
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:34 pm

Let me know if i understood...

Post by GreyJoy »

Hi guys

Ok, i made some tests about how the CAP works.

If i have 200 fighters based on base "X"
In this base X i have 1,000,000 supplies, 500 aviation support, several base forces with 10x CPS-1 Radars, 1 Air HQ with top leader (Halsey)

I set these fighters at 0 hex range and escort with 50% CAP.
No escort mission is performed (it's a sandbox scenario).

The base "X" gets attacked by an enemy's air strike

the combat report, no matter how many times i try, always shows this result:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on "X" , at x,y

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 150
Ki-84r Frank x 100



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 100
.........etc etc...


Always 100 fighters are "possibly" involved...so to day exactly those fighters included in the 50% of CAP....ALWAYS

I was always told that, the remaining 50% of those fighters, which were able to perform an escort mission (escort with 50% CAP), if no escort mission was to be performed, were able to join their comrades in the CAP mission... It seems to me that i've always been wrong...[:(]

Can you confirm this? So to say: planes not included in the CAP percentage WILL NEVER take off to meet the incoming enemy, even if no other mission is performed (say Escort, Sweep, etc...)

Thx in advance

GJ
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LoBaron
Posts: 4775
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by LoBaron »

Good observation and tests. I thought the same as you did.

Does this coincide with the combat animation, its tedious, I know but sometimes to
get a real result you have to tick off single planes from the animations?
Because I always am very careful to take any number shown in the combat report file
for granted.

An explanation would be that the CR only lists planes specifically assigned to CAP/LRCAP mission
in the area, and this again does not tell anything about the number of planes that actually flew.
I highly suspect this is the case.

You could try to increase detection range to increase time to target and so enable more planes to
react. What was your achieved max value there?
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LoBaron
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Location: Vienna, Austria

RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by LoBaron »

You could try a negative test as well, e.g. set CAP to 30% and see if the numbers drop accordingly.
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n01487477
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Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:00 am

RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by n01487477 »

And apart from anything - to reseed the random number generator in the old days you needed to restart the game exe ... Not sure if it was true or not but that is what I always heard & am not sure if it is true for AE either.
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witpqs
Posts: 26250
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Location: Argleton

RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: n01487477

And apart from anything - to reseed the random number generator in the old days you needed to restart the game exe ... Not sure if it was true or not but that is what I always heard & am not sure if it is true for AE either.

My understanding agrees with that. You need to do something that changes "stuff". Maybe somewhere far away on the map you can give a few orders to units and see if that changes the randomness for those air combats?
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castor troy
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Austria

RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi guys

Ok, i made some tests about how the CAP works.

If i have 200 fighters based on base "X"
In this base X i have 1,000,000 supplies, 500 aviation support, several base forces with 10x CPS-1 Radars, 1 Air HQ with top leader (Halsey)

I set these fighters at 0 hex range and escort with 50% CAP.
No escort mission is performed (it's a sandbox scenario).

The base "X" gets attacked by an enemy's air strike

the combat report, no matter how many times i try, always shows this result:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on "X" , at x,y

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 150
Ki-84r Frank x 100



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 100
.........etc etc...


Always 100 fighters are "possibly" involved...so to day exactly those fighters included in the 50% of CAP....ALWAYS

I was always told that, the remaining 50% of those fighters, which were able to perform an escort mission (escort with 50% CAP), if no escort mission was to be performed, were able to join their comrades in the CAP mission... It seems to me that i've always been wrong...[:(]

Can you confirm this? So to say: planes not included in the CAP percentage WILL NEVER take off to meet the incoming enemy, even if no other mission is performed (say Escort, Sweep, etc...)

Thx in advance

GJ


you know that running the same turn again and again without changing something will always give you the same result? Just to make sure.

And I was thinking the same about the rest of fighters being available that are not directly set to Cap. Your test really surprises me because I have seen my carriers have far more fighters on Cap that they actually had fighters set to Cap so IMO what we think to know is exactly what happens. Your tests seem to show a different picture though.[&:] I got no clue but if it really turns out to be the way you described it then this changes pretty much everything in my plannings.
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GreyJoy
Posts: 6750
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:34 pm

RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by GreyJoy »

Ok, made some more tests....very very strange results.

same settings. Now with 198 Helens escorted by 150 Franks

First run:

1 single group composed of 200 defending fighters on escort, 50% CAP, 0 Range, 15k alt.


Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 100



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 200

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 57 destroyed, 10 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 41 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 56 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 14 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 7 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 9 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 7 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 5 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 2 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
36 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 27

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
6 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes




So with 200 fighters on 50% CAP the code works as we all thinks it should...1/3 of the 50% is airborne, 2/3 of the 50% on standby and the rest of the other 50% (those devoted to escort) are scrambling.
Notice that 0 fighters are being recalled so noone is so to say "out of position" (this is due to 0 hex range as we will see....)






SECOND TEST

2 groups of 200 fighters each (total 400 fighters). Same settings: Escort with 50% CAP, 0 hex range, 15k feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 300

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 26 destroyed, 7 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 12 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 184 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 47 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 17 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 23 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 13 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 56 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
111 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled


Airbase hits 28
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 48

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
40 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
43 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
41 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes






So what happens now? one group scrambles the remaining 50% of its fighters, while the other one doesn't...
Note again that not a single fighter is being recalled


Let's try it again...
(and yes, i changed something - altitude of one group)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 300

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 24 destroyed, 6 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 10 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 133 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 45 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 48 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 16 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 8 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 15 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 3 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
90 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled


Airbase hits 48
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 86

Aircraft Attacking:
37 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
34 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
43 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
46 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes


...so 300 fighters is the maximum number of fighters that can be joining the combat??...i don't believe so... let's go on



Another try

3 groups composed of 200 fighters each (600 totals). Alt 15k, 0 range, escort and 50% CAP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 400

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 21 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 17 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 150 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 49 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 44 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 14 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 8 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 20 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 3 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
89 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 46
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 108

Aircraft Attacking:
44 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
39 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
42 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
40 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes



So what? now out of 600 fighters 400 seems to be the limit number?...one group scrambles everything, while the other two groups use only the 50% fighters initially devoted to CAP mission, leaving in hangars the other 50%...


Ok, another try... 4 grouops of 200 fighters each (800 totals)...same settings...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 400

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 9 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 23 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 202 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 65 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 63 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 19 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 10 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 17 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 4 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
83 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Airbase hits 53
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 89

Aircraft Attacking:
48 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes


So the 400 limit number seems to remain, despite having added a group with 200 fighters... so now only the planes devoted to CAP were actually able to partecipate. Not a single scrambling fighter...



Ok...let's try with 100% CAP, 4 groups of 200 fighters each...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 150



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 800

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 18 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 31 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 12 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 9 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 13 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 29 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 5 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 11 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled


Airbase hits 16
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 34

Aircraft Attacking:
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
47 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
84 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
78 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
66 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
70 planes vectored on to bombers



So now all of them partecipate....[&:]

(note that the result doesn't change...the bombers always get through...)


Ok...another run... 5 groups...200 fighters each....1000 fighters in total... 50% CAP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 117 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 196
Ki-84r Frank x 150



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 500

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 5 destroyed, 11 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 28 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 167 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 65 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 74 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 6 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 10 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 20 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 25 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
81 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 54
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 118

Aircraft Attacking:
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
43 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
46 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
49 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
20 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (32 airborne, 67 on standby, 0 scrambling)
32 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers


...and again... not a single fighter is scrambled...so the remaining 500 fighters (100 in each group) remain in the hangars...



mmm...let's try with 1000 fighters on LRCAP


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 150



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 1000

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 58 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 60 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed
B-29B Superfort: 7 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 36 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 5 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 6 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 2 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 25
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 34

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
144 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
128 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
136 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
114 planes vectored on to bombers
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (64 airborne, 134 on standby, 0 scrambling)
64 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
104 planes vectored on to bombers



So now with CAP at 100% all the planes managed to get in the air...





So what do we learn?
As far as i can tell fighters may scramble only up untill a certain number limit...above that number only the planes actually set on CAP mission are going to get in the air...


Now, look at this...

Same settings of the first attempt (1 group of 200 fighters on 50% CAP BUT with hex range 1...)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 37 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 100



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 200

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 35 destroyed, 7 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 2 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 22 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed, 24 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 8 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 9 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 4 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 5 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
23 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 13

Aircraft Attacking:
21 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
23 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (4 airborne, 67 on standby, 100 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 25 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 98
Ki-84r Frank x 50



Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 186


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 44 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-84r Frank: 12 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 3 destroyed, 13 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 2 destroyed on ground
B-29B Superfort: 4 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.VI: 3 destroyed on ground
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 destroyed on ground
C-47 Skytrain: 3 destroyed on ground
F-6D Mustang: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
15 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
31st Fighter Group with P-47D25 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 56 scrambling)
92 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 62 minutes
61 planes vectored on to bombers




With the 1 hex range a lot of planes get caught "out of position" and are recalled....

(tested several times always with the same result)...
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TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum »

If you increase the range of the unit, wouldn't some of the CAP "leak" out of the hex and into the surrounding hexes? Hence being "out of position".

I'm pretty sure if you (as Japan) sent a sweep or a bombing mission to one of the hexes next to Hakodate that you would encounter a small number of Allied fighters.

That could be why you see those recalled aircraft.
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GreyJoy
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

If you increase the range of the unit, wouldn't some of the CAP "leak" out of the hex and into the surrounding hexes? Hence being "out of position".

I'm pretty sure if you (as Japan) sent a sweep or a bombing mission to one of the hexes next to Hakodate that you would encounter a small number of Allied fighters.

That could be why you see those recalled aircraft.


I know i know, but i thought that a range bigger than 0 meant that fighters COULD be directed to another hex in range...not that they were FOR SURE over that other hex...[&:]
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TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

If you increase the range of the unit, wouldn't some of the CAP "leak" out of the hex and into the surrounding hexes? Hence being "out of position".

I'm pretty sure if you (as Japan) sent a sweep or a bombing mission to one of the hexes next to Hakodate that you would encounter a small number of Allied fighters.

That could be why you see those recalled aircraft.


I know i know, but i thought that a range bigger than 0 meant that fighters COULD be directed to another hex in range...not that they were FOR SURE over that other hex...[&:]


Your tests would indicate otherwise.

In fact your tests seem to indicate two things:

1. That units on CAP <100% will scramble aircraft at rest only up until a certain limit.

2. That units on CAP with a range greater than 0 have a great chance of being caught "out of position".

To confirm #2, you need to launch attacks at the hexes that are neighboring Hakodate as I previously suggested, this would allow you to figure out the number of fighters that is patrolling outside Hakodate at a given time.

I'd also continue to mess with your range settings and see if you can screw the results up even more. Ranges 2-4 may show even more differing results.
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GreyJoy
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: TheLoneGunman

If you increase the range of the unit, wouldn't some of the CAP "leak" out of the hex and into the surrounding hexes? Hence being "out of position".

I'm pretty sure if you (as Japan) sent a sweep or a bombing mission to one of the hexes next to Hakodate that you would encounter a small number of Allied fighters.

That could be why you see those recalled aircraft.


I know i know, but i thought that a range bigger than 0 meant that fighters COULD be directed to another hex in range...not that they were FOR SURE over that other hex...[&:]


Your tests would indicate otherwise.

In fact your tests seem to indicate two things:

1. That units on CAP >100% will scramble aircraft at rest only up until a certain limit.

2. That units on CAP with a range greater than 0 have a great chance of being caught "out of position".

To confirm #2, you need to launch attacks at the hexes that are neighboring Hakodate as I previously suggested, this would allow you to figure out the number of fighters that is patrolling outside Hakodate at a given time.

I'd also continue to mess with your range settings and see if you can screw the results up even more. Ranges 2-4 may show even more differing results.

Yes.
I think the number 1. is the most surprising discovery...never thought or heard that there was a fixed limit for the number of scrambling plane...[X(]
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Dan Nichols
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by Dan Nichols »

GreyJoy, your tests are very depressing. [:(][X(]
I think that the two obligations you have are to be good at what you do and then to pass on your knowledge to a younger person
hkbhsi
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Location: Rome, Italy

RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by hkbhsi »

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.
Dobey455
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by Dobey455 »

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.
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Gunner98
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by Gunner98 »

Also the damage is less when you have fighters with range being recalled. Maybe there is an issue of too many AC in the CAP stack - what if you down scaled the test to using 10s vice 100s a different result might happen.

Interesting

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castor troy
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

GreyJoy, your tests are very depressing. [:(][X(]


unfortunately. Being not the best friend of the air model it seems I even was too positive about it. So far I have been thinking it doesn't work when huge numbers are involved but the huge seems to start at something like 200 already. [:(]
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Puhis
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by Puhis »

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

+1

I'm not saying there's no issues, but if players are forced to spread their forces instead of huge stacks, it can't be all bad...
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LoBaron
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

+1

I'm not saying there's no issues, but if players are forced to spread their forces instead of huge stacks, it can't be all bad...

I see it in a similar way, in fact its exactly these results which should force the player to prefer dipersal.
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beppi
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by beppi »

I remembered that it was already stated my michaelm in the tech forum that arrival of CAP also counts as a round which is subtracted from the 200(300) rounds limit.

Direct quote:
"A round is counted when the flights engage each other, or a delayed CAP arrives. "

check out the tech forum.

So arrival of planes (XX on standby) reduces the possible combat rounds further. An interesting test would be the effect of
200 planes of the same type on CAP against 200 planes of the same type in very small groups (2-3) planes against 200 planes of the same type in small groups on different altitude versus 200 planes of as many different types as possible (but with the same stats modded stats).

For myself i suspected that the grouping of planes (which battles another in a combat round and has a size from 1-8) depends at least on plane type. Possible even on altitude and/or group. That would leave the possibility that a lot of different plane types /altitude/groups even reduce the effect of CAP. I am pretty sure that a lot of different plane types have a effect (I do not have the time right now to do much more testing to 100% confirm that as my GF is already killing me for too much WITPAE in my PBEM).

beppi
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RE: Let me know if i understood...

Post by beppi »

ORIGINAL: Dobey

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

The strange thing about your test is that you achieved the best result with less fighters. In the first test with 200 planes you destroyed a bunch of attackers, the more you added the less you killed.

To be honest I really DO hope that's the case. I would like to see the RL "law of diminishing returns" reflected in game results and hopefully somewhat discouraging the ever popular "Death Star" tactics where players strive to concerntrate their entrie force into a single hex \ base.

Problem is that there are some "reasons" which almost force an death star tactic.

1.) Multiple strikes during a combat phase. Each strike reduces the effective CAP. If you have only 200 planes on cap but face 5 100 planes strike the last strikes will only face a very very low number of remaining cap. To compensate you usually try to have a cap as big as possible to have as much planes as possible remaining for the last strikes. And i personally have faced 10 strikes during the AM phase and even with 1000 planes CAP the last strikes faced a very small CAP.

2.) Sometimes you cannot spread you assets. If you have to do a long range landing on a heavy defended position you only have a few spots to do. You will face a multiple enemy bases against you. Small CAP means your are quite dead.

3.) Big Strike > Small Strike && Small Cap > Big CAP. If you ignore the problems mentioned in point 1 a small CAP is better than a big one. Unfortunately currently the point 1 forces you to have a big cap. In addition there were a lot of reason why everyone tried to optimize the linkup of strikes. Big strikes are much more effective than small ones.

4.) Other crucial spots. Usually you only have 1 or 2 good naval bases to bring in the masses of supply you need lategame. You need multiple surface TFs to protect the base against naval raiding and sometimes big convoys will arrive there. If you only have 200 planes on CAP you will have a problem to protect anything.

5.) Protection of the bases and range problems. If you split you attacking units on 10 or 15 bases some will not be in range and you still have a problem to protect them. Again if you take Rule #1 into account you need quite a lot of planes to first have a cap of 200 - 300 planes second have a 100 planes to have some escorts. Then you have a lot of repairing planes. All that put together leaves you with a problem with too much bases with only small amounts of planes there.

Mainly that are the reasons why everyone tried to get a CAP as big as possible and a strike size as big as possible with the current engine. I still hope there will be some changes (splitting up of incoming strikes, changes how CAP behaves with multiple attacks) in the engine. There are some problems which especially occur late game. But just to "split" your assets more will achieve not a much.
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