Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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gradenko2k
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by gradenko2k »

Throwing in the towel actually happens quite often in online competitive games, even those that are designed from the ground up to be a fair fight.
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delatbabel
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by delatbabel »

Perhaps we do need a ladder where both completed and abandoned games can be ranked.

I've won 2 as the Soviets due to opponents disappearing, and lost one due to just being beaten by a better player.
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KenchiSulla
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by KenchiSulla »

This happens, just let it end.. You clearly beat him using the current game rules, good job..
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karonagames
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by karonagames »

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I am probably the last person who should be contributing to a thread about quitting games, but I don't think the issue is simply one of etiquette and pre-game determination to finish the game, but also trying to match skill and ability.

In pre-release testing, one of my greatest concerns was that everyone would get fixated on the 41GC and jump straight in to a game that modelled the 1941 first winter probably more accurately than any game heretofore - i.e. a real shock to the system. And lo and behold the first 6 months after release were spent screaming about the blizzard and/or learning how to cope with it. The simple fact is that nothing can prepare you for the first blizzard, and all you can do is learn the lessons it teaches you and apply them to your next game.

So I would suggest that part of the match making process when setting up games should be for the Axis player to confirm that he knows how to survive the blizzard and rebuild the Axis ready for the summer of 1942. A minimum requirement should be to have played Operation Typhoon (5 turns of Blizzard)PBEM before embarking on a full 200+ turn game.

There is fun to be had on the other side of the Blizzard for an Axis player, but there is a pretty major fun-less period to be endured to get there.
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Tarhunnas
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by Tarhunnas »

It is probably unavoidable that people will quit when things are going badly or when they lose interest. What makes this especially annoying in WITE is that the Axis have a period of fun for the first 17 turns and then the Soviets will have their fun. An Axis player who takes his fun and then quits is the online gaming equivalent of a poor lover!

On the other hand, you cannot expect people to continue putting in at least an hour per turn for months into something that has ceased to be fun for them. I have had 6 Axis opponents quit for one reason or other.

While I am at it, I must give credit to my opponent Gids, who has been extremely tenacious and is always promptly returning the turns, even in the darkest moments of adversity! 
Read my AAR:s ye mighty, and despair!
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Tarhunnas
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by Tarhunnas »

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

There is fun to be had on the other side of the Blizzard for an Axis player.

At least, lets hope there will be in 1.05.[;)]
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Commanderski
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by Commanderski »

While I don't have the time to do a PBEM game, at least for the time being, I have played several games by Email in the past. I've had quite a few opponents either develope "computer problems" or just dissappear if they were losing. The last Email game I played was John Tiller's game Smolensk '41 as the Soviets. It was a long game and I lost in the end but I played to the end.

I've read where quite a few Axis players quit during or just after the blizzard. While that may have sort of been expected just after the game came out but there has been more than enough information in this forum to let the Axis player know what he is in for.

If they quit, that is a win for you but is frustrating as the Soviet player as they have a lot more work to do in getting their forces together
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pzgndr
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by pzgndr »

I play games to have fun and this one hasn't been in quite some time. So I'm ending it here.

And from another post:
All the more reasons why the AI, although it can make a reasonably competent training/sparring partner, will never be as fun or challenging to play as a human.

Ah, the irony. [8|]
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Jakerson
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by Jakerson »

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Tough call on this either way.

Would you feel better if the guy lied to you and said stuff had come up in RL and that he had to cut back on games? How about he continues to go along and just hits the completed turn button without really putting much effort into it?

We all play for different reasons, but the game turns do take up a considerable amount of time and each game is a big investment in time. It sounds like the Germans are pretty much done in your game with that force ratio and with what you still hold. It may suck in the early going for the Russians to be in the receiving end of getting the crap kicked out of them and be patient to return that favor and then have a German go belly up on them and deny them "their turn" at the offensive, but in a sense, the Russians have scored a moral victory by breaking the German player's will to continue to invest the time and play.

With the pending changes coming, I expect this issue to become worse as players will want to try the latest and greatest version of the game and there will likely be a lot of games abandoned either by mutual consent or just one player outright quitting.

It dosent really matter what reason are if there would be some way to rate opponents. People who quit takes hit for their reputation and suffer from it when it makes harder to find good opponents in the future forcing them to play only with new players and possible worse quitters.

If there would be some reputation to guard it would gurantee better play when there would be price to pay from dissappearing tactics. It would propably make new players harder to find good opponents but if people would have to invest time to build good reputation it is unlikely they want to lose it easily.
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76mm
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
What makes this especially annoying in WITE is that the Axis have a period of fun for the first 17 turns and then the Soviets will have their fun. An Axis player who takes his fun and then quits is the online gaming equivalent of a poor lover!

I agree, the first 17 turns as Sov are both tedious (tons of admin/reorg) and depressing (armies smashed, cities and factories taken), so for a German player to quit after the first summer is very unsportsmanlike. While the German player might not want to play to the bitter end, you'd think they'd be willing to play until the end of 1942, or something...
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mmarquo
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by mmarquo »

Ironman Club. Not for the timid or faint of heart. Gladiators to the death. Do not start something you can't finish. Enlisting is optional; being stricken from the honor role is not. The only way out is for the game to finish to the last turn or if your opponent agrees to premature cessation of hostilities.

Do not promise someone a match you won't finish; it is unsportsmanlike, self-centered, and rude. It disrespects the time and effort the abandonned player has made to entertaining the slackard. [:-]

There is no reason to not start a thread where jilted players can list the names of players who prematurely abandon games without mutual consent. It would be a great asset to those looking for reliable opponents; or conversely start a "Reliable Opponent" thread.


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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by Jakerson »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
What makes this especially annoying in WITE is that the Axis have a period of fun for the first 17 turns and then the Soviets will have their fun. An Axis player who takes his fun and then quits is the online gaming equivalent of a poor lover!

I agree, the first 17 turns as Sov are both tedious (tons of admin/reorg) and depressing (armies smashed, cities and factories taken), so for a German player to quit after the first summer is very unsportsmanlike. While the German player might not want to play to the bitter end, you'd think they'd be willing to play until the end of 1942, or something...

ROLF! At least there is 1944 campaing if you can fool your german opponent to play it for while you can have your payback as Soviet side.

gradenko2k
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by gradenko2k »

ORIGINAL: Jakerson
ROLF! At least there is 1944 campaing if you can fool your german opponent to play it for while you can have your payback as Soviet side.
To complete the effect, someone should create an alternate 1944 scenario where the Germans get equipped with a dozen Laser-equipped Maus tanks and Cyborg Rifle Squads exactly 17 turns after the start of the game.
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jzardos
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by jzardos »

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Only a German player can tell you how likely that game is to be turned around.

I need practice as the Germans (Soviet fan boy here!) so if you can get his password off him, I'm more than willing to see how it goes and try to take over from him.

I won't be a swift player though, as I only have time for 2/3 turns a week (have 1GC running for over six months as the Soviet, and we are only in Oct '42 and I want to keep that going as I think its still fairly open about who is going to win)


Ok, the drama of this story now continues. I need more opinions if I'm out of whack on this being something my opponent should agree on. As you can see above Encircled has graciously offered to take over this game. I've sent a few polite requests to my opponent to PM or Email Encircled with the password so he can play this on if he decides to after looking it over. I've yet to hear back from my opponent yet, which is kind of pissing me off even more. Should I feel this strongly that he should agree to this? Would it be possible to have a tester or veteran WitE member act as a mediator to help facilitate the passing of the game over to Encircled?

Looking desperately for anybody to play the hero and help there to be a somewhat happy end to this story.

Thanks [&o]
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ETF
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by ETF »

I would like to know the name......too convenient to quit just a things get a little closer in the game. Good to track..... I would not want to play with him. Too much of a risk. I would hope he would play out at least till the end of 42.
Just my two cents....

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Hagleboz
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by Hagleboz »

ORIGINAL: ETF

I would like to know the name......too convenient to quit just a things get a little closer in the game. Good to track..... I would not want to play with him. Too much of a risk. I would hope he would play out at least till the end of 42.
Just my two cents....

It's not that big of a secret, the drama unfolded over in the AAR's.
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by Mehring »

I really don't know what the problem is. Do you want to batter a beaten opponent to the bitter end? How unseemly. A win is a win, and if your opponent fights to the bitter end and loses or resigns, it matters not. You won. Enjoy! If you want a good challenge, increase your chances by soliciting an experienced opponent with some wins under their belt.
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jzardos
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by jzardos »

ORIGINAL: Mehring

I really don't know what the problem is. Do you want to batter a beaten opponent to the bitter end? How unseemly. A win is a win, and if your opponent fights to the bitter end and loses or resigns, it matters not. You won. Enjoy! If you want a good challenge, increase your chances by soliciting an experienced opponent with some wins under their belt.


I think you're missing my point and the entire reason why I like to play these games.
It's not really about winning or losing for me. I think it's playing the under different circumstances that make it fun for me. If every time I played WitE it followed the same exact path, I would get bored with the game. So maybe I'm in a better position to win as Sov, but even if things were reversed I would still be playing. I hope that makes sense Mehring, not sure how else to explain my logic or enjoyment in playing these types of games.
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jzardos
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by jzardos »

Good News. [:)] My opponent has thankfully decided to give the password to Encircled. We might even go back a few turns if needed for Encircled to play on. Still up to him if he wants the challenge, but it was a nice gesture either way.

Whether the game continues or not, I give my opponent a 'thanks' for this action of good sportsmanship.
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abulbulian
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RE: Community Awareness: gaming etiquette

Post by abulbulian »

I think that it would be a nice feature enhancement to have a special 'End Game' button with more choices as how it should end. Maybe two new features:

- End Game w/AI taking control: so if a player does want to play on, he can end the game this way and a turn will be saved giving future control to the AI.

- End Game w/new player: same conditions when a player doesn't want to play on, but now the password in the saved turn is reset so another human make take control and play on. Of course this can still be accomplished as happened here, for the previous player to just convey the password to the player taking over. However, sometimes we re-uses passwords and players might not want to disclose them in this manner.

What do people think the value of this feature would be?
- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2

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