Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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mmarquo
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Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by mmarquo »

Here are some things permitted by the game engine which make me cringe:

1. Railroading STAVKA or OKH all over the map to unload support units for free. Realistically displacing a supreme HQ anywhere by railroading should have a huge AP penalty/cost; how many times did STAVKA pack up, leave Moscow, and travel the front just to assign a few miserable support units to lower level HQs? Did OKH ever travel from Vinnista to anywhere to make sure engineers and siege guns were attached to the correct corps commander? The cost in terms of efficiency and oversight of the entire front would be prohibitive.

2. The opening, "Riga Gambit." The port of Riga was almost dysfunctional becasue of the WW1 blockades; that the Axis can magically turn it into a major functioning port in the first week of the invasion to the point of naval transporting several divisions and using it as a major sea supply source on the first move degrades the historical credibility of the game.

3. Soviet Amphibious Assault capabilty: I have found no accounts of the Germans building a Black Sea Wall to prevent a massive Soviet amphibious assault on the Ukranian or Roumanian shores. Why is that?

4. The mysterious manner in which the Soviet Airforce functions...which no one seems to be able to explain...

I make these comments because I really like the game and maybe someone with the "power" may listen, and if judged worthy, a change may be made. [:)]

Thanks

Marquo
Pawlock
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by Pawlock »

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Here are some things permitted by the game engine which make me cringe:

1. Railroading STAVKA or OKH all over the map to unload support units for free. Realistically displacing a supreme HQ anywhere by railroading should have a huge AP penalty/cost; how many times did STAVKA pack up, leave Moscow, and travel the front just to assign a few miserable support units to lower level HQs? Did OKH ever travel from Vinnista to anywhere to make sure engineers and siege guns were attached to the correct corps commander? The cost in terms of efficiency and oversight of the entire front would be prohibitive.


Thanks

Marquo

Actually this option is not free as it uses immense railway capacity at a time you need it most. So for that reason alone I wont do it.
gradenko2k
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by gradenko2k »

#1 is an issue of UI / playability / quality-of-life. It's completely possible to do all your support unit reshuffling without moving OKH / STAVKA around, it's just a giant pain in the ass to do so. The solution isn't necessarily to disable OKH / STAVKA's movement, it's to get the support unit assignment interface is a fast and clean enough state that it's faster to do that instead of railing Zhukov around.
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WarHunter
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by WarHunter »

ORIGINAL:4. The mysterious manner in which the Soviet Airforce functions...which no one seems to be able to explain...

I make these comments because I really like the game and maybe someone with the "power" may listen, and if judged worthy, a change may be made. [:)]
Thanks
Marquo


Mysteries are fun. Soviet Air Force is fun. Funx2

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entwood
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by entwood »

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Here are some things permitted by the game engine which make me cringe:


2. The opening, "Riga Gambit." The port of Riga was almost dysfunctional becasue of the WW1 blockades; that the Axis can magically turn it into a major functioning port in the first week of the invasion to the point of naval transporting several divisions and using it as a major sea supply source on the first move degrades the historical credibility of the game.


I make these comments because I really like the game and maybe someone with the "power" may listen, and if judged worthy, a change may be made. [:)]

Thanks

Marquo

Right, and other gambits also. Too many hard-codes in the game, 5, 10, 20, 25 hexes and or MP's, etc. If there was more variation and randomness, such as 4-6, 8-12, 17-23, 21-29, then pre-planned exact hex calculation moves would be more difficult to do and could work out better or worse and totally open up the game.

such as:
25 hexes and 100 MPs of a railhead
The HQ must be within 10 MPs of the railhead.
HQ supply buildups are not allowed for HQ's that are more than 20 MPs from their railhead


and others
mglshark
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by mglshark »

Ploesti oil fields bombing round clock as Axis Ally planes don't fly.

Russian Black sea invasion Romanian coast.

Build fort, level 1 wait, dismantle. Repeat! Lines of forts as far as the eye can see, best on rail lines. Building Russian ants cheap also gets same benefits plus you can go Static and regain AP's.

Russians can attack every turn along Entire Front, anytime so stretch that German \ Finn line and infiltrate & grind weak Axis Allies units. And you can do "Sherman march to the sea" soviet style, tearing up rail lines with weak out of supply ant units as the axis player must chase you down.

Soviet All Weather future air tech allowing open cockpit planes to bomb Axis airfields with Stalin laser guided bombs grinding them down, the worse the weather the better for the Russians! Heck they outperform US 8 air force for grinding down the Luftwaffe. Warhunter (see his older posts) in our PBEM game had to pull his AF back to reserve during bad weathers due to my  crushing Russian air power waves (10 - 20 waves per airbase attacks per turn in Mud, Snow, Blizzard....), by far "the gamey move of the year". For older gamers same thing happen in Second front, War in the East older software games.

To his credit he did bag Moscow and Leningrad before the snow fall in '41 so the only fun I had was bombing airfields. Plus he pulled his line back 1 - 2 hexes in trenches forcing me to do low odds hasty attacks, never getting the ground hurt on him.

Axis Riga gambit 1st turn.

Partisan handling building forts every 3 hexes "to guard that rail line"

German mountain units breakdown to stack with during blizzard to avoid defense penalty .

Checkerboard Russian defense forcing Germans to attack low end units over and over burning up movement points...

Random weather Mud, normal, then Snow, normal, etc. Does work both ways however making everybody crazy (love even weather zones lines....)

ML





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Panama
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by Panama »

Well, actually STAVKA was all over the place early on in the war. Only because communications were a mess. I don't think they were towing an artillery piece behind them. [:D]

Really hard on the eyes to see the standard Axis left hook to the south, isolating all those units around Lvov. Not a big fan of standardizing opening moves in any game. Sucks the fun right out of it.
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Ketza
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by Ketza »

My recent game as a Soviet found My Axis opponent not pocketing anything but attacking everything in sight. This lead to an interesting "no pocket" infantry rush. The jury is still out but it has got his infantry closer quicker.
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: Panama
Really hard on the eyes to see the standard Axis left hook to the south, isolating all those units around Lvov. Not a big fan of standardizing opening moves in any game. Sucks the fun right out of it.

Here here!! [:@] Death to the South mega-pocket and death to those who use it! I want my Southwestern Front units back!
a nu cheeki breeki iv damke
entwood
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by entwood »

ORIGINAL: Panama


Really hard on the eyes to see the standard Axis left hook to the south, isolating all those units around Lvov. Not a big fan of standardizing opening moves in any game. Sucks the fun right out of it.

I agree. That is the other 'famous' one. The players who invented them deserve credit for those gambits but they should not be always or close-to-always repeatable game-to-game like Pawn to Queen 4 chess opening.

In fact, only Guderian might have tried it.

so rather than any conservatism moving down the chain of command and then guys like Guderian might override 'orders' and do their own thing, to their career peril, the chain of command works from the bottom up. I don't think a conservative commander such as von Rundstedt would have allowed it.
davetheroad
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by davetheroad »

The Lvov pocket slice irritates the hell out of me. Apart from being a logistical nightmare for the panzers. Hey, guys you are now next to rumania but your supply line is 100's of miles back to Poland and no, you can't just switch to Rumanian rail as it will take the logistics guys a couple of weeks to re-route all the stuff via that long rail line through hungary.

What is interesting is that some soviet mech units are mis positioned at the start, presumably to simulate where they actually first contacted the germans and to try and ease the IGO/UGO turn sequence. The problem with that solution is that it does not work if the germans do not follow a historical line of advance.

Back to the Lvov left hook. First thing is to put the 16mech corps in its correct atarting position and take account of its orders to concentrate just about where those panzers are slicing south. Plus the likely soviet reaction to the mad panzer stampede. Put stuff in the way. Maybe the start positions for all the soviet southern stuff should be part way through their historical moves or even where they had moved to by week 2
entwood
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by entwood »

Maybe leader Admin and Initiative for German movement points need to be applied on Turn 1.  That should do something vs. gambits. 

As an aside, the game that handles leaders in my all time favorite manner is the old board game
War Between the States
Designed by Irad Hardy
Published by Simulations Publications, Inc. (1978)

if anybody recalls it.   Grant, Lee, Jackson, Sherman, and some others conduct wonderfully reliable actions, moving and fighting, then it get's dicey.




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jomni
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by jomni »

You guys want to nerf the Germans during Turn 1?  But that's their only chance to make for an interesting game. 
 
Also I've never seen a successful Soviet Amphibious assault in the game.  All of them eventually gets surrounded and surrender.
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Panama
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by Panama »

ORIGINAL: jomni

You guys want to nerf the Germans during Turn 1?  But that's their only chance to make for an interesting game. 

Also I've never seen a successful Soviet Amphibious assault in the game.  All of them eventually gets surrounded and surrender.

Nah. Not a big fan of nerf bats. Seeing the same stuff all the time gets old is all. Almost like the game should be set up at turn 2 with the opening moves already done. [;)]
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Ketza
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by Ketza »

I suppose if the Axis had better potential moves then the Lvow pocket they would use them. As it is against most Soviet players its your only shot at a good size pocket early in the south.
entwood
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by entwood »

ORIGINAL: jomni

You guys want to nerf the Germans during Turn 1?  But that's their only chance to make for an interesting game. 

Just the opposite. I would like to see the game become more interesting and realistic and reduce gambits which is gaming the system. Turn 1 could become more interesting (replace a few key commanders on Turn 1 using points so you could have a better chance at the gambit you want to use, and still have to deal with a die roll and actually adjust your plans depending on....could be big interesting decision...

There are other changes that would help, some increased or improved FOW, air war fixes certainly, continue to fix other bugs, plus maybe add some variations in strength or position of starting soviet units as was mentioned. Some players have even advocated getting rid of Turn 1 (see a post above). I'm hoping the maybe more silent majority of players feel this way about gambits. It was part of the original post and the argument has more or less been sustained so far.


Your statement "But that's their only chance to make for an interesting game." should not be the case I think!

Read many AAR's and you learn how to game the system and take advantage of it and not how to be a top player who can be flexible and resourceful imho. I play the Axis.
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kvolk
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by kvolk »

group think is contagious...
Leadership is intangible, and therefore no weapon ever designed can replace it.
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76mm
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by 76mm »

I don't like the Lvov gambit at all, because there is absolutely nothing the Sov player can do about it, and it makes a signficant difference in how things unfold all across the front (ie, with big Lvov pocket becomes very difficult to shift any troops from south to north to defend Lgrad.

Then again of course the Germans are already having a hard enough time in 1942 and if you don't let them take Lgrad, things could be really ugly...
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Hagleboz
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by Hagleboz »

I hate the first turn gambits (especially the infamous Lvov as it is completely outrageous in my eyes) although I don't fault players for using them since the Germans need to be as aggressive as possible to succeed long term.  Still these gambits were developed through numerous rounds of trial and error and discussion in the forums until the best methods were achieved.  Since when do real generals get to choose the best method with a known outcome?  Using them is unrealistic and unimaginative, but what is a player to do?  Those who avoid using the gambits know they are achieving less which is a hard route to choose if you know you will be investing 100's of hours time into a game.  Skipping turn 1 as a solution will only lead to turn 2 gambits in their place once players discover the best moves available to them.  What this game really needs some sort of first turn randomization but I have yet to read or think about an idea that I think would be a really good fix.
ComradeP
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RE: Gamey Tactics which Drive Me Wild

Post by ComradeP »

There is no real fundamental difference between reaching the Romanian border on turn 1 or reaching it on turn 2, provided the rail lines out of the pocket are cut and even if they're not, the Soviets need most of their rail cap to move fresh troops to the front. Anything they spend on evacuating the area is good from the Axis perspective.

In my game with Andy, he captured Proskurov on turn 1 and didn't get to the border, but I still lost almost the same amount of divisions as before, because the Soviets can't get out in any case.

I'd also say the Axis need a bit of a break for the first turn, as the Soviets have a lot more capabilities to quickly create a somewhat solid defence than their historical counterparts had, so until that changes (for example, until routing becomes more costly on the defenders), the Axis need a good opening to get anywhere.
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