Serbia never surrendering?

Adanac's Strategic level World War I grand campaign game designed by Frank Hunter

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lettowvorbeck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 3:22 pm

Serbia never surrendering?

Post by lettowvorbeck »

In my single player game as the Central Powers I seemingly conquered Serbia in 1914 (all country hexes are in my control and all their units disappeared) yet by late 1916 it has not surrendered. This is the first time I've played with the game set at Entente advantage. I wonder if that has something to do with it. Has anyone else seen this stubborn Serbian situation?
SMK-at-work
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Location: New Zealand

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by SMK-at-work »

I've not played with TE advantage that I can recall - maybe it is that.  But Serbia should never surrender anyway - in the real WW1 they did not, even though the country was  completely over-run, and the remade their army and had 6 divisions (IIRC) on the Macedonian front.

OTOH - are you completely sure that every hex was occupied??  I've been bitten by failing to occupy a hex or 2 only to find Serb units being built in them!!
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
sbaxter1
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:46 am

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by sbaxter1 »

I play CP a lot and the Serbs are a nasty bunch. They do surrender but in my last game I had destroyed all of their units and overrun the entire country (I checked and, yes, every hex belonged to a CP country, mostly Austrian, some Bulgarian and some Turkish) but they still had not surrendered. France had already surrendered, Britain was wavering (thanks to aggressive U-Boats, I guess) and Russia folded the next turn, ending the game, so I have no idea what the deal was with Serbia in that one game.

While I am on the subject of the Serbs, I must complain that AI stacks the deck in its favor when it plays Serbia. If I am TE, the Serbs have a grand total of two HQ, one with 2 offensives and one with one. There are no trenches but the Serbs have one economic point which can buy them two trenches in 8/14 and available in 9-10/14. No other TE power can transfer points to Serbia until 9/14, assuming that CP does not take the port of Scutari in August. AI, however, gets two HQs with 4 (four! can you imagine?!) offensives each in 8/14 and I saw it entrench in five hexes in 9/14. I wanted to concentrate on stemming the Russian horde and figured on merely protecting Sarajevo and Ragusa, but no, those Serbs were on their way to Budapest before I realized what was going on. Fresh infantry, right out of boot camp, were sent to blocking positions until I could muster HQ to launch a counteroffensive. I have also seen AI send French and Russian infantry taking MY territory without the benefit of HQ or cav. Oh, well.

So when is there going to be a usable users manual? All I can find is for V 1.21 and it is, at best, lacking in many respects. It refers to sending units for assault training, if you get to that level, but does not tell how to do it. [during the strategic phase, find the unit, click on it and get the box listing "Refit, Assault Training, Diband"} There is no mention in the manual that you can disband a unit and I cannot yet tell what the rules must be for doing it. I can disband some, but not others and cannot tell what makes the difference.Ditto for assault training. Some units can be sent, others cannot. Oh, and there is the important aspect that units completing the assault training are upgraded in quality. I don't see any sense in sending an A unit to assault training.

The manual says that it takes one naval asset point to repair one damage point but I see that one point will repair two damage points. So British cargo ships with two damage points from my U-Boats will be out this turn but could be back in action next turn if TE has the bucks to repair them.

The manual mentions amphibious assaults but fails to point out some key items, like the presence of a Dreadnaught in the port to be assaulted will keep that port from being attacked or that you can only send one corps and it needs to be activated for the assualt. As an exception to the rule of Cav taking cities, it can take a port but any enemy units present certainly guarantee the destruction of the Cav unit. Oh, and the very critical sea supply for any unit conducting an amphibious assault, unless you mean to simply raid the port and then evacuate the next turn. Then there is the critical point of control of the seas. Trade can take place through enemy controlled waters (assuming your cargo ships are not damaged or sunk), but there are no amphibious movements, even from one friendly port to another if the route goes through waters controlled or contested by the enemy.

I had hoped to take out the Royal Navy by having Turks take Alexandria, a long and arduous task involving the use of cav and no direct attacks on British forces until we got next to the port. Sadly, the fleet there merely rebased to India and still controlled the Eastern Med. OTOH, if there are NO other ports for a rebase, the fleet in port will be scuttled. Ships out on a mission will be unaffected.

I learned the hard way about protecting your supply lines, something the manual does not tell you. Worse, I found out that an HQ with offensives left cannot activate anything if it is in a hex with no supply. You cannot fight your way out when surrounded and have no supplies. Pray for a relief column or have cav with infantry to go through enemy controlled but unoccupied hexes. Good luck with that!

Then there are transfers. Serbia can only receive finished goods. It does not need and cannot use food or raw materials. The sending country spends strategic movement points which costs Austria when it sends its excess raw materials and food to Germany, which really, really needs them. I am not yet convinced that the manual is correct when it states that strategic movement costs the country controlling the hexes and not the country the unit belongs to. I will try to pay attention to this some time.

India, I learned, is a port of the Eastern Med. British units formed there can be moved by ship or walk through Mesopotamia.

Economic points are not all the same. One point buys eight arms in Britain and France, seven in Russia and Austria, nine in Germany and two in Serbia.

SMK-at-work
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RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by SMK-at-work »

Yeah the manual is a bit ropey.  I have never noticed the AI repairing 2 points at once, nor the Serbs getting more HQ points or trenches - but then I don't keep a close track of everything that is going on - look for threads by Hjaco - he's don a lot of analysis of what goes on - me I'm just a keen enthusiast! :)

given that you rolled over France and Russia and had the UK on the ropes it doesn't seem that you were too hard done by by any AI strange behaviour :)

It is possible that the French sent them some resources, which would b a slly thing to do....but AI's sometimes are not that logical!

A few specific things I can answer tho - and here are a couple of threads that cover some of you points.

Economic points - minor powers economic points are only worth 1/3rd of a major powers points - so if you send Serbia a point from France it appears as 3 points for Serbia.  So everything costs 3 times as much - eg it costs 9 Serb finished goods points to buy a HQ point instead of 3.

Similarly the minors do not use food or resources at all - which is a bit of an error IMO

You cannot assault a port that has any capital ship in it IIRC - so DN, PD or BC - it may even include CA's.  This was a relatively late change to stop the TE assaulting Trieste or Kiel!

Supply is something you should protect in all war games :)

You disband by right clicking a unit in the reinforcements dialogue - you can use the interface to cycle through the units, or you can right-click on individual units.  IIRC you can disband infantry or cavalry, and IIRC you receive back all their manpower and 1/2 their equipment.  It is sometimes useful to disband low quality units and recycle their manpower into better quality ones, especially if they are very weak and not worth reinforcing - units drop a grade when they have had twice their initial strength worth of replacements (and will drop again when they receive twice as many a 2nd time, and again a 3rd) so for example you probably wouldn't want to reinforce 1 str "D" grade unit - you'd send it 1/2 way to "E" grade!

I hadn't noticed that assault upgrades the quality of units - my games never seem to last long enough to get to it...one way or another!




Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
ham17
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:05 pm

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by ham17 »

just for reference. The following is quote of my opponent's mail.(thank you, hjaco)


"Note that you can let Scutari rot to starvation gaining control of Serbia but due to a bug, it will not be considered conquered until you have actually spend an offensive point to take Scutari whether you already control it due to 0 supply or not. Stupid but thats the way it is. I won't get into a low supply hex so just wait until you get Scutari and you can see what I mean."
lettowvorbeck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 3:22 pm

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by lettowvorbeck »

yes, every hex!
SMK-at-work
Posts: 3396
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Location: New Zealand

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by SMK-at-work »

Ham - Hjaco's post is 9interesting - in another game I surrounded Belgrade for over a year and it never surrendered - indeed my opponent sent points to the Serbs and built units in it!  I wonder if that bug extends elsewhere, and whether it is a bug or a feature??

Edit:
Actually, along the same lines, I just noticed that a couple of cities I'd "captured" by cutting off didn't generate a "CP has captured XYZ" until I moved in - even if only by strategic moves, which I could do into them.
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
SMK-at-work
Posts: 3396
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 8:00 am
Location: New Zealand

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by SMK-at-work »

One thing I can confirm from a test this morning is that 1 naval point will repair 2 pts of damage on a transport (I did it on a Grman Tr damaged by British cruisers, with game balance set to pro-TE) - haven't had 1 return with just 1 point of damage to see how that works out yet tho & I'm off on holiday for 10 days in an hour, so someone else can test hat perhaps?

Ciao
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hjaco
Posts: 872
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:09 pm

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by hjaco »

Hi guys,

The surrender bug is general in the game. I first noticed it bypassing Liege letting it fall due to 0 supply. Suffice to say Belgium didn't "surrender" until I actually spend an offensive point taking the hex.

If you hover the mouse cursor over a city you control which have 0 in supply you need to take it with an offensive point in order to control it for morale purposes and gain the right amount of supply.

Quite technical but it works.
Hit them where they aren't
lettowvorbeck
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 3:22 pm

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by lettowvorbeck »

Hjaco,
My problem is I am certain I did indeed spend an HQ point in the taking of all the city hexes. Something extraordinary must have happened.
SMK-at-work
Posts: 3396
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 8:00 am
Location: New Zealand

RE: Serbia never surrendering?

Post by SMK-at-work »

I suspect the same applies to non-city hexes - if anyone is in a position to test it? (I'm out of town on holiday...)
Meum est propisitum in taberna mori
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