German strategy 41

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von Schuwar
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German strategy 41

Post by von Schuwar »

...

German side

Its pretty easy to defeat Russians in 41, even if you are giving max help to the Soviets(rail supply at 10). Every time i start 41 campaign I can capture Leningrad and Moscow, so i tried to develop more chalengin 41 campaign. So I let the computer play computer at the start of 41 campaign. At the end of september he is able to take Velkeye Luki, Vitabesk, Gomel, Kiev, Zaporozhe line. Then i took over. I fortified this line and advance to Smolensk and Bryansk. In this matter I achieved huge Russian bulge in south of my front. My plan was to trap them all in 42. I fortified entire front to a least 3 on the entranchment scale. And with panzer corps moving beyond this line I created buffer zone between this line and the Russians so they first must come in to get the contact with my defence line. Then I retreted panzer corps at the begining of blizard time. Soviets came in, but they didnt attack at all during blizards. This was strange because they had supply level at 10, and still were holding a large portions of the land, cities and industries. Obviously computer calculated risk on high entranched corpses and didnt attack. So casulites were: Germans 10 000 squads, Russinas 50 000 squads which were achieved during summer campaign. Russians only slightly attacked on Snow turns. ??? Stupid computer didnt use blizard time for anything other then fortifing its line.
[&:]

So my plan was to gain reinforcments, buld my armies, train aircraft so I can be ready for 42 campaign. The idea was to envelop the Soviet armies in the south.

In detail the idea was to advance in the south (from Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhe line) with 1 Panzer army and take Stalino, and then turn north to Harkov and Kursk. In the north to advance towards Orel, and then turn south to Kursk where two armies would join and trap the Soviets. Both Panzer armies had 3 Panzer Corps, with 3 Panzer or SS Panzer division each and one motoriezed or Pzg division. Ofcoruse with Stugs, strong artillery and flak.

Before that I built strong air domination in the south by attacking Soviet airfields 2 turns before I attacked on land. Then , at the begining of may turn I started the campaign by breaking Soviet defences in Rostov and Orel direction. In the second turn I shatterd 2 headquaters which gave me momentum. In turn 4 or 5 I cleared ares around Orel and Rostov and took them. Then I turned south towards Orel and North towars Harkov. On turn 7 or 8 Kursk was captured which trapped more then 10 Russin corpses in the bulge. Then I started moving from the west with infantry corpses form Kiev - Gomel line. The enitre pocket surrendered. In the North I trapped in similar way 5 Russin corpses starting with 3 panzer corpses equiped in the same way as those in the south starting from Pskov - Velikeye Luki line.

Result: Complete Russin front in the south colapsed, and in north i was at the gates of Leningrad and it is only mid july. I achieved bigger victory then when i started playing by myself in 41 and conquered Moscow and Leningrad before october 41. At this point route to Stalingrad was open, because of repeated shatering of their headquarters. I think it is possible to achieve ultimate victory in this game by end of 42.

In conclusion, even if you dont achieve aims in 41, well fortiefed line will avert strong Russan counter attack. I recemond to start building defence at the begining of october. Also if you hold the line I was holding , you can trap large amount of Russian armies in the next summer campaign. You can just use what Germans call elastic defence in any campaign. Allow them to advance in some areas while holding strong flanks and then trap them. [8D]

So i was hoping for more chalenging game, but I achieved even larger victory. Now I will try to win by leting computer vs computer play until march 42, and then take comand. I once started this and casulties were: Germans 45 000 squads, Russinas 60 000 squads. [:'(]

Never played Russians though.

If you have any ideas for playing Germans or Russians, please do share... [:'(]
colberki
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by colberki »

The game favours the Germans. WIR AI is not so good. Even in a game vs a human player, using the standard house rules on the foum, the Germans are still favoured to win. But the Germans will feel a lot more pressure to achieve better than historical to do well in the game.

WIR has its flaws but a PBEM game is still a gem. Many of us on the forum have played the game since the mid 1990s. When you are ready try a PBEM game.

Enjoy WIR.
harrybo
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by harrybo »

PBEM is a lot better than the games AI and if you play against a decent Russian player, I've found it much more difficult for the Axis. In fact although I'm new to PBEM, I've found playing both sides that it's been very difficult for the Germans to achieve their aims in '41 and then they get torn apart in the blizzards. Maybe I'm not aggressive enough in the early days!
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Rasputitsa
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: von Schuwar

In conclusion, even if you dont achieve aims in 41, well fortiefed line will avert strong Russan counter attack. I recemond to start building defence at the begining of october. Also if you hold the line I was holding , you can trap large amount of Russian armies in the next summer campaign. You can just use what Germans call elastic defence in any campaign. Allow them to advance in some areas while holding strong flanks and then trap them.
If you have any ideas for playing Germans or Russians, please do share... [:'(]

You are playing with the benefit of hindsight and if the Germans had acted as you recommend they would probabily have won the war. The game is faithfully representing what might have happened, which is pretty good for a very old game. [:)]
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von Schuwar
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by von Schuwar »

...

Well, I dont think the game favours Germans, quite the oposite. Only early in 41 Germans have distinct advantage. After that you should consider bad strategic position the Germans are in(and were in reality). Western allies are destroying your industries and oil fields(starting at the end of 42 summer campaign), fling to Ploesti and even Maikop if you are holding it. Also the Russians are getting stronger much faster then the Germans. So key to the game(as were in reality) is to win it early if you are playing Germans. And if you are playing human oponent, then I can imagine it would be even more difficult!
ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

You are playing with the benefit of hindsight and if the Germans had acted as you recommend they would probabily have won the war. The game is faithfully representing what might have happened, which is pretty good for a very old game. [:)]

Yes, ofcourse![;)]
Its never mentioned in the game what position you are holding in German army, but war in the east was waged by OKH. So you are in position of Comander in Chief of OKH, the position which was held by von Brauchitsch until december 41, and then by Hitler himself. In this capacity you can wage this war as you see fit! [8D] So elastic defence is my choice! [:D]

I think that this is really an excellent game and it is always suprising to me how well its tuned to real situation in WW2. It was also very educational, because you can strategicly see dispositon of armies at the begining of every campaign. [:)]

At the moment I am again playing this game. As I metnioned before, I let compuetr play computer until march 42, end of blizzard turns.
Casulites are: Germans 45 000 squds, Russians 60 000 squads. I will write how I played this when i finished it, but I think the victory is possible for the Germans in 44, though you are very weak in 42.

Details coming soon... [:)]

Soon I will turn to human vs human games.

colberki
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by colberki »

Perhaps, it is overstating it to say the game favours the Germans. But as the Soviet player, it is difficult to survive Barbarossa against a strong German player. Even if Moscow does not fall, the Soviets probably already badly mauled in the summer, must still hit hard the Germans in front of Moscow during the Winter of 41-42 or the Germans will be stronger than historical and will be able to renew a general offensive along the entire Eastern front including a drive on Moscow.

Well, only way to know is to play a few human opponents!

But I have not seen a German player win in 1944 for a game that started in June 1941. Its usually curtains if the Soviets gains the initiative. German manpower losses would likely to have been crippling.

Good luck!
asa
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by asa »

For von Schumar:

in case you decide to try human vs. human pls send me a PM.

asa

(either side of course)
asa
asa
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by asa »

OOPS sorry I meant von SCHUWAR...

asa
asa
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Balou
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by Balou »

So i was hoping for more chalenging game

Just browsing thru forums, I went across your post. It's many years I've played my last WIR/PBEM. Sometimes, just for fun, I've tried a lonely game (Axis side) against the AI (Soviet). Always started with the 1943 campaign, balance set to even. Never managed to loose, but it's much more challenging than a start in 41 or 42. To me this was by far the most interesting way to play against the AI. Starting as the Axis in 1944 always went wrong, mainly because I couldn't manage
to simultaneously draw up a decent air defense of my factories back home and counterbalance Soviet air superiority in the east.
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von Schuwar
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by von Schuwar »

Yes I agree. Its very hard to win in 1943., impossible in 1944.  I once almost reach Grozny in 43 campaign(i always use balance max help the Soviet) but this was big mistake because there was partisan uprising on a single rail line that i was using, so the entire fornt colapsed. I had to reatret to Rostov.

But i was thinking about strategy for this campaign against computer. I will shift my panzers south, towards Rostov(its has resources, Kursk and Vorenezh havent), then i turn north(not south as I did before) with aim of taking Voronezh. There is posibility of encircling Russin forces in Kursk area after that. While I am advancing in the south I would try to lure Russins further west, and this can be done by widrawing elemnts of 2nd Army. If you do this, you will be able to encircle single Russin corpses and deminish Russian strength. It goes without saying that you assemble all panzer divisins in the south and make your panzer corpse with at least 3 panzer divisions and 1 motorized. You will loose few turns for that, but your objectives are localy limited so there will be plenty time to achieve them.

I would try also to take Tula in the north(for the 44 advance towards Moscow), but at that point panzers will be depleted and there is only 2 months of real fighting left in this year. So this could only be bonus. In other parts of the front I would remain on the defensive using infantry divisions.

At the end of 43, you should have taken at least Rostov, Kursk, Voronezh and Leningrad(this is easy, because computer at one point removes his corpse from a hex vital for complete encirclement of Leningrad, just wait for that moment). In 44 you can then advance towards Moscow and Stalingrad. [>:]

In regards to my 41' campaigns, when I let computer play till the end od february 42. i was able to win in 43. Your front is shatered completly and forced in retreat, you will hold the line Pskov, Vitebesk, Mogilev and Odessa. You are very weak in infantry and artillery, but the panzers recover very quickly so you can use them in may 42'. This is also the only way to advance, because infantry is just to weak in any campaign in general after 41. You create panzer corpses with 3 panzer divisions and 1 motorized, using also allies panzer, motorized or cavarly divisions. In this way you can create 7 panzer corpses. You should deploy them in the south and centar and encricle Russian forces from Kiev to Kursk. You can try to advance on the entire front with this panzers, using 2 panzer corpses in the north, 3 in the centar, 2 in the south(this is how i won in 43). And then you go for Russian HQ-s, because when you shatter them you will be able to free advance in next turn.

The strategy would be different if you play computer oppnent(i never done that), much more complex, but i just havent got the time. Unfortunately [:(]




Jason Kane
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by Jason Kane »

I feel it is far easier to win playing the Soviets. From the get-go, you must withdraw all air units well out of range and begin training them up. By the time the YAK1 comes into full production you should have some strong fighter units which can stand up to the Luftwaffe.

The large armored units must also be withdrawn and saved for when the T-34 comes on line. By June 1 42 you should be able to completely fill out five tank armies each with 2-3 mech/tank corps of 1000 strength pts each. Then you can begin some serious counterattacking.

If you start building a strong line along the Moscow front in the summerof 41, you can hold out until your new tank and air armies can come onto line.
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Balou
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by Balou »

von Schuwar,

I'm not sure whether I got you right. So you let the computer play both sides until 42 and then you take over the Axis side, and let the computer continue as Soviets ?
You create panzer corpses with 3 panzer divisions and 1 motorized...

This I never did because of stacking limits. Maximum 3 Armoured/motorized divisions per Korps.
“Aim towards enemy“.
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PanzerMax
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by PanzerMax »

Panzer divs are 3 for stacking while motorized are 1.  Total for a pzcorp is 9 to have no readiness loss, but 10 total only drops readiness 5% and 11 total 10%, after that it moves up more quickly.  Having 10 or 11 points in a corp isn't a big deal to readiness especially when you can special supply.  On the other hand, I would rather use my motorized divisions in separate corp, similar to how they were often used in real life.  Gives you another slot for armor/art brigades anyway.
von Schuwar
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by von Schuwar »

I'm not sure whether I got you right. So you let the computer play both sides until 42 and then you take over the Axis side, and let the computer continue as Soviets ?

Yes! I take over first week of march and was able to win in 43.
This I never did because of stacking limits. Maximum 3 Armoured/motorized divisions per Korps.

Panzer corps, this big dont effect readinees(Pz Max is correct) so much. You need strong panzer korps to get trough soviet lines. I also turn some infantry corpses to panzer corpses, though I rarely move them like panzers. In this way their readiness is high, so they are good to defend important hexes on the map. The rest of infantry I use combined with panzer corpses or in multiple infantry corpse attack.




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Balou
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RE: German strategy 41

Post by Balou »

I also turn some infantry corpses to panzer corpses

Sounds a bit gamey to me, but I understand you use every opportunity to boost readiness.
“Aim towards enemy“.
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