Trade Hiccup

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barbarossa2
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am

Trade Hiccup

Post by barbarossa2 »

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: I am missing the trade routes and all associated trades and resources I should have received for my new trade routes created in the last two and a half turns.

Okay. So I am France in the "nofrills" PBEM. It is a 1792 scenario. With advanced economy.

For the first several turns, I dramatically increased my trade with Poland. I mean rapidly. By September 1792 or so, I was importing roughly 91 resources per turn and exporting 116 gold for it. By the next turn it was 116 resources for 142 gold. In December 1792 I was confirmed for another 34 imported Polish resources. In January of 1793, I was confirmed for yet another 38 imported Polish resources, bringing the total Polish imports to 188 resources, in exchange for a nice chunk of French specie.

Initially, every turn I proposed trades, I would get messages in the trade proposals portion of the event summary report which indicated that I had added new trade routes. I would then go check the trade routes summary and was satisfied to see that the new trade routes were, indeed listed.

However, that pattern (propose trade>get new "accepted" trade routes confirmed in events summary report>have these "accepted" routes appear in the trade summary portion of the economy screen) has been broken. It seems at some point I "saturated" or something, and the new, verified and accepted trades--as indicated in the event summary report--are not showing up in the trade summary list in the economic advisor.

In other words, I can propose trades as normal, the next turn's event summary indicates that indeed 95% of them were accepted. But they do not appear in the summary of trade routes in the economic advisor--but all of the old ones still do. I know because they are listed in chronological order, I can check them against my old trades, and I see that for two turns now, the list has not grown by a single trade--even though I have had roughly 20 new, confirmed trade routes on my event summary report since then (spread out over two turns).

And I know because I have been keeping precise written records of all of my trades with Poland. It is easy to go right down the list and see that the old ones are all still there... and then suddenly it stops. As if nothing has happened in the last two turns in spite of 20 reported new "accepted" routes in the turn summary of events (presented below).

Additionally, for several turns now, I have tried to trade with Spain (also a human player), and this has not succeeded at all. First of all, I am not able to trade for Spain's vast warehouse of horses, as they don't appear for any province on the "propose trade" screen. I gave up on that, and much to the disappointment of Spain and France, went on to secure vast quantities of horses from Poland. However, in the last two turns I have tried to buy wool and cotton from Spain as well, and I see neither hide nor hair of these "accepted" trades either. I don't know if this problem is related to the problem listed above or not. What is working is that the early trade routes I had with Tunisia and Algeria have been taken over by Spain in the Economy Advisor's "Trade Review" list following Spain's occupation of these two minor nations. But the new trades for cotton and wool which were reportedly accepted are nowhere to be seen on the Trade Review list. Why the other trades offered to Spain failed, I do not understand. Perhaps the Spanish player, FRANCK, may have a guess or theory?

(ADDIT: I just confirmed my Spanish trade problems... In the event report for the January 1793 turn it indicates that my trade proposal of 10 money from Le Mans for 4 cotton from Valencia was accepted. This trade is nowhere to be seen in the "Review Trade" portion of the economy advisor. Interestingly, additionally, for some reason another trade with Spain where I proposed to send 10 money from Paris for 2 wool and 2 cotton from Bari was rejected. Of course, it isn't listed in the "Review Trade" report either.)

Again, it appears that my trade list just stopped growing for the last two turns, in spite of the fact that I am sure the events summary report has indicated I have added another 20 routes in the meantime.

Is anyone else having similar problems?
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
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*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
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aprezto
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by aprezto »

Certainly trading with Spain, or more precisely a human power, is more difficult. I imagine you have parlayed with the Spanish and done the necessary PBEM policy changes?
Never heard of the Polish thing, as you say, you may have pushed it beyond where it has gone before.
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barbarossa2
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am

RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

Posted below is my list of accepted trade proposals from the December of 1792 event summary which did not appear in my Economic Advisor's "Trade Summary".

Just below the list (and not shown in the image), there is an indication that a total of three trade routes were broken due to shortfalls from my supplier:

1. Brest-Tunis
2. Paris-Kovno (Polish)
3. Marseille-Tangier

(ADDIT: I have just double checked these one by one after making sure I was referring to the province instead of the city...none of the following "accepted trades" are listed in the trade summary)

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AcceptedT..ber1792.jpg
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My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
barbarossa2
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am

RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

Posted below is my list of accepted trade proposals from January 1793 which did not appear in my trade summary.

Just below this list (not shown here), there is an indication that one (1) trade route was broken due to a shortfall on the supplier's behalf:

1. Paris-Kovno (Poland)

(ADDIT: I have also just double checked these newly accepted trade routes one by one --after making sure I was referring to the province instead of the city -- none of the following "accepted trades" are listed in the trade summary)

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AcceptedT..ary1793.jpg
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My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
barbarossa2
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am

RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

And, interestingly, here is the Import/Export report from the economy tab in January of 1793...

When I do a manual count of the number of wool I am importing in my Economic Advisor's "Trade Review" screen (which doesn't include ANY trades approved from the last two turns), I come up with 44 wool imported no matter how many times I do it. I have counted 3 times and come up with 44 each time (ADDIT: 4 times now). The value below shows just 41 (why just 41? the same line indicates no wool was stolen[:(]). Additionally, if I add the additional wool imported in the last two turns for "approved" trade routes which are not being shown in my "Trade Review" screen, I come up with an additional 12 wool imports missing from deals inked in December 1792 and 9 wool imports missing from deals inked in January 1793. So, by January 1793, I should have deals to import approximately 62 wool per turn...not 41!!!!

Please note that it isn't just wool that I am having problems with, but wool is the resource I chose to do my bean counting with for various reasons.

I think I smell a fish. I'll bet anything WCS is skimming a few wool off the top of every transaction in every PBEM game and making themselves a killing in the textiles industry! [;)]

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My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
barbarossa2
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

I have been trying to count out these transactions, but what makes this terribly complicated is the fact that in the "EVENT SUMMARY" the trades are listed as being between cities. But in the "TRADE SUMMARY" for some reason, they are listed by province. I would recommend changing all references to trade to use either the city or the province so that one can actually review it at a glance. 
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
barbarossa2
Posts: 915
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am

RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

Posted below is my list of accepted trade proposals from the November of 1792 event summary which did not appear in my Economic Advisor's "Trade Summary".

Just below the list (and not shown in the image), there is an indication that a total of one trade route which was broken due to shortfalls from my supplier:

1. Brest-Tunis

(ADDIT: After checking the list presented below, I have determined that the first six ARE included in the Trade Review from January 1793. The last three "accepted" items (originating from Peregeux, LeHavre, Lille) are MISSING, as are all of the trades from the following December and January as shown in the entries above. Nowhere have I ever received any notice of the cancellation of two and a half months worth of trade deals due to shortages).

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My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
barbarossa2
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

I would count my money to see if it is being charged against me, but that could take two hours, and I have some other work to do now.

P.S. Several weeks ago, I reported on the massive tax income hit which Sweden took after an enforced peace in a previous email game of mine which left me baffled. I felt there was an issue there as well. However, it had no paper trail like this problem does. Based on the results of this exhaustive analysis, I feel the Sweden issue should be reopened and examined more closely.
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
barbarossa2
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

P.S. FRANCK, can you check your settings and perhaps offer some thoughts as to why these trades with you (the Spanish trades) listed above were rejected?
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
Mus
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by Mus »

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

P.S. Several weeks ago, I reported on the massive tax income hit which Sweden took after an enforced peace in a previous email game of mine which left me baffled. I felt there was an issue there as well. However, it had no paper trail like this problem does. Based on the results of this exhaustive analysis, I feel the Sweden issue should be reopened and examined more closely.

That was explained by your extreme lack of population, probably due to a long and large unsustainable draft without producing the food necessary to replenish your population. Refer back to the thread in question if you missed it. Your population was dwindling slowly down to nothing.

This issue is a little odd.

Have you consulted the economic report tab along the bottom to see if any of these trade routes are being canceled due to war, lack of materials etc?

Trades dont show up for a couple turns (I guess that simulates the lead time to set up the routes?) so if they fall through in that amount of time they wouldnt show up in the trade review screen at all.

Also me and AndrewKurtz (GB and Sweden respectively in PBEM 109) have a thread in tech support up about trade proposals that both parties have their settings put to accept getting rejected for no apparent reason so its being looked at.
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ericbabe
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by ericbabe »

If a nation or province cannot produce enough resources at the time of trade, then the trade route is broken.  It's relatively easy to produce more trade routes than a nation can actually maintain later.  Also there is indeed some (suitably large) hard limit on the number of trade routes a nation can maintain; I can't remember what this is offhand, and unfortunately I don't have the code handy right now to check.
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barbarossa2
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

Eric, I am aware of the breaking of trade routes if a province has a shortfall. I am totally cool with that. I have experienced it dozens of times and it is a normal part of the game. But that tends to hit established trade routes relatively "randomly". Not to 23 trades in a row.

You mention a hard limit on the number of trades. It seems that I am hitting it. Or that I hit it in mid-November. IF that is the case, it might explain everything.

Very interestingly, Spain has also indicated that the Spanish trade route (10 money for 4 cotton from Valencia) which was agreed to in the January report above has not worked.

::::) <---that is a spider smiley.
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
barbarossa2
Posts: 915
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am

RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

I just counted and in my January 1793 turn, I have 49 trade routes which are showing as active (and I think are functioning) in the Economy Advisor's "Review Trade" screen. With another 23 added in the last couple of turns, it might have been up to 72, minus one or two additional broken links.

If there is a limit of 50, it seems that based on my short experience as France in the 1792 scenario, that it is too little, as I hit it within 6 months of the beginning of the game pursuing a policy of growth and peace. I would hate to think that that option is ruled out for players. 
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
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06 Maestro
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by 06 Maestro »

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

I have been trying to count out these transactions, but what makes this terribly complicated is the fact that in the "EVENT SUMMARY" the trades are listed as being between cities. But in the "TRADE SUMMARY" for some reason, they are listed by province. I would recommend changing all references to trade to use either the city or the province so that one can actually review it at a glance. 

I agree with this completely.

The PBEM trade system seems to have some hidden values. The trading situation for me has taken over a year to stabilize. Currently the numbers from the National Economic page correspond exactly with the various trade agreements-money and quantity. The Economy Report also contains the correct info.

The biggest issue that was identifiable was piracy. That may have been the only problem, but I did not see enough info to be certain of that. I counted my trades, from different angles multiple times, and was left wondering multiple times.

We are now up to turn 17 and for me (playing as Turkey) the trade system is working and reporting correctly. I assure you I will be keeping a close eye on it.
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Franck
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by Franck »

B2, as I said before I can't really check until monday :(


Sorry! I'm pretty sure the policies are alright... What I believe might have happenned is that I hicked the taxes by 2 percent on that turn... maybe I wasn't producing 2-2 after the taxe went up.


Anyways will check it in depth as soon as I get home on Sunday (should be between 12:00 and 5:00 PM eastern time after my canoe camping trips.)


Good weekend
Franck
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by Franck »

After reading this whole thread I can confirm that the only problem Might come from me raising my taxes. It lowered the amount of wool and cotton produced and wasn't able to meet the requirement of the deal.&nbsp;
barbarossa2
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by barbarossa2 »

Franck, that would solve the Spanish trade part of the problem. And that's cool.

But it doesn't solve the fact that 23 trades in a row (the most recent 23 trades of mine which have been accepted) which were confirmed as being accepted are:

a) not showing up in the "Review Trade" portion of the Economic Advisor screen
b) not showing up in the total amount of collected resources

They were accepted, and have not registered since.

However, all trades up to that point which had been accepted have been accounted for in both "a" and "b" above. Eric is going to check to see what the maximum number of trades allowed is.
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
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morganbj
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RE: Is there a problem with trade?

Post by morganbj »

I have the perfect solution.


Don't trade.


(Just funnin' ya, B2.) [:D]
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