Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
tigercub
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:25 pm
Location: brisbane oz

Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by tigercub »

I JUST RECEIVED MY COPY OF SHATTERED SWORD GREAT BOOK THE TALK FROM HERE MADE ME DO IT

OF NOTE IN THE BOOK IS ITS CLAIM THAT ONLY 56 Vals & Kates were made in all of 1942 page 89!

Can anyone disprove this?

I have production numbers but its not clear...if this is true? WOW what were they doing smoking Weed all day!

(Coz i am ZZZ waiting for AE)

Tiger!
Image
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life
herwin
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:20 pm
Location: Sunderland, UK
Contact:

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by herwin »

ORIGINAL: tigercub

I JUST RECEIVED MY COPY OF SHATTERED SWORD GREAT BOOK THE TALK FROM HERE MADE ME DO IT

OF NOTE IN THE BOOK IS ITS CLAIM THAT ONLY 56 Vals & Kates were made in all of 1942!

Can anyone disprove this?

I have production numbers but its not clear...if this is true? WOW what were they doing smoking Weed all day!

(Coz i am ZZZ waiting for AE)

Tiger!

The Japanese were converting over to D4Ys and B6Ns. The D4Y finally went operational in March 1943, after about a year of teething troubles with wing flutter and the German in-line engine. The B6N had even worse teething troubles, taking two years to reach squadron service in early 1944. The D4Y had a high stall speed, so it could only operate from Japanese fast carriers. The B6N was too heavy for the smaller Japanese carriers.
Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com
User avatar
JeffroK
Posts: 6380
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: tigercub

I JUST RECEIVED MY COPY OF SHATTERED SWORD GREAT BOOK THE TALK FROM HERE MADE ME DO IT

OF NOTE IN THE BOOK IS ITS CLAIM THAT ONLY 56 Vals & Kates were made in all of 1942 page 89!

Can anyone disprove this?

I have production numbers but its not clear...if this is true? WOW what were they doing smoking Weed all day!

(Coz i am ZZZ waiting for AE)

Tiger!

Thats what Shattered Sword says, and if correct a blow for the JFP who thinks the game understates the ability of the japanese aircraft industry.

I will say it creates an admiration that the japanese empire did so much with such a screwed up home base.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
User avatar
tigercub
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:25 pm
Location: brisbane oz

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by tigercub »

Keffk LOL.....Ill fill some blanks that i have info on and see if any of the guys can add to this from what I have there numbers are in doubt

Source :Japanese Aircraft of the pacific by R.j.Francillon 1970 i picked up for $15.00AU 25 years ago

Val : D3A1 ,D3A2 production of 1,495 were build as follows
Nagoya
2 11-shi prototypes

6 D3A1 trial aircraft

470 D3A1 production craft ( Dec1939-Aug1942 )

1 D3A2 Prototypes (june 1942 ) why make a new Prototype if they stopped production?

815 D3A2 production craft (Aug 1942-june 1944)

Tokyo

201 D4A2( dec1942-Aug1945 )

Kates B5N1 and B5N2
Nakajima plant
669 B5N1 and B5N2 (1936-1941)

Aichi plant
200 B5N2 (1942-1943)

Kokusho

280 B5N2 (1942-1943)

does not give monthly numbers But i think shattered Sword claims can be in question?

anyone got more on this i would love to know.

Tiger!
Image
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life
User avatar
EUBanana
Posts: 4255
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:48 pm
Location: Little England
Contact:

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by EUBanana »

Shattered Sword is an extremely good read and I found it very illuminating, but its a bit... pop history?  I wouldn't take it as absolute gospel.
Image
User avatar
Local Yokel
Posts: 1494
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Somerset, U.K.

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by Local Yokel »

Parshall and Tully attribute their aircraft production figures to "USSBS (22? - LY), Nav. 50, pp. 202-6", and to information supplied by Allan Alsleben and James Sawruk. I am not at all clear as to the USSBS data to which reference is being made.

I have, however, been able to take a look at an online copy of USSBS Corporation Report Vol. 34 upon the Japanese Army Air Arsenals' and Naval Air Depots' contribution to aircraft and engine production. This suggests a resumption of B5N2 production at the 11th Naval Air Depot at Hiro (nr Kure) in April 1942. A table in the report indicates a total production of 70 B5N2 between April and December 1942, with production rising from 5 airframes per month between April and July to 10 airframes per month thereafter.

I should like very much to access a copy of USSBS Corporation Report No. 2 on the Nakajima company proper, which might shed some further light, but have been unable to locate an online copy. Resolution of the conflicting data on Japanese aircraft production is, apparently, far from straightforward, and no doubt Parshall and Tully have the benefit of information I haven't seen. However, the figures I have cited for B5N2 production at a single NAD makes me wonder whether a total 1942 production figure of 56 machines needs some re-evaluation.
Image
User avatar
tigercub
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:25 pm
Location: brisbane oz

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by tigercub »

is that POP US History? anyway is a good book and i never take anything as Gospel been around to long.

Tiger!
Image
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life
User avatar
Local Yokel
Posts: 1494
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Somerset, U.K.

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by Local Yokel »

The USSBS Corporation Report Vol. 20 on the Aichi company gives an actual production figure of 55 B5N2 aircraft at its Ettori plant between June and December 1942. Interesting that this figure is so close to Parshall and Tully's 56 aircraft, but may be entirely coincidental.
Image
User avatar
tigercub
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:25 pm
Location: brisbane oz

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by tigercub »

thanks Local Yokel

Tiger!
Image
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life
spence
Posts: 5409
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am
Location: Vancouver, Washington

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by spence »

I think the whole point of the production figures quoted in "Shattered Sword" is to offer an explanation as to why the Japanese showed up for THE DECISIVE BATTLE (as they thought of it) with depleted airgroups in the KB. The shortages apparently extended beyond just Kates.
User avatar
JeffroK
Posts: 6380
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by JeffroK »

ORIGINAL: tigercub

thanks Local Yokel

Tiger!

Thanks Guys,

I have a number of very minor probs with SS, maybe its reputation would suffer a few small dents if investigated fully.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
ckammp
Posts: 756
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 4:10 pm
Location: Rear Area training facility

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by ckammp »

deleted
User avatar
Subchaser
Posts: 1015
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:16 pm

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by Subchaser »

Under carrier attack aircraft authors understand only B5N Kates. Here are some thoughts on this subject.

It is known that Nakajima did not deliver a single Kate in 1942, only Aichi’s Eitoku factory and 11th Naval Air Arsenal were producing Kates in 1942. Eitoku factory was not capable to produce any significant amount of aircraft in 1942, this new factory lacked some key machinery and reached planned output only in early ’43. In ’43-44 11th arsenal at Hiro had a very modest monthly output of 25 a/c of all types, and in 42 it was probably even less. Most of the sources indicate that ~480 B5N2 were delivered in 1942-44, if we take into account insufficient production capacities of both factories in 1942, ~60-80 Kates produced in 1942 seems to be more or less realistic number.

I’m not sure about exact 56 a/c figure though, as mentioned in the notes – this data comes from USSBS papers and Munitions Ministry documents, famous for their contradicting data, it’s highly unlikely that one of interrogated IJN officials in 1945 was able to remember the exact production figures for any particular plane in 1942. If 56 Kates were really mentioned somewhere, it could be really total figure produced in 1942 or… amount of a/c accepted by IJN, number of planes transferred to carrier borne units, or even calculated deficit of this type in the first line units. Nobody has hard data on this subject, but this doesn’t make Parshall’s point less valuable, it’s absolutely clear that IJN did not get enough Kates to replace losses in 1942.

Even before Midway it was already a critical situation, according to USSBS - 273 dive and torpedo bombers of all types were lost by IJN during 12/41-5/42, this figure includes both combat (162 a/c) and operational losses (111 a/c), ~1/4 of operational losses goes to training units equipped with obsolete types. So the frontline units losses during this period were ~ 240 Vals and Kates, the larger part of these losses were probably Kates, my guess - 120-140 Kates. After Midway IJN were losing their valuable torpedo-bombers at even higher rate, so with insufficient a/c supply, the second line and training units were stripped off all their Kates (mostly old B5N1s) by fall 1942.

The main reason why IJN found themselves in such a difficult situation were not the shortcomings of Japanese aircraft industry, which were obvious nevertheless, but the poor Koku hombu management. Even before the outbreak of the war Kate was considered obsolete type, the maiden flight of the brand new B6N Tenzan took place on march 14 1941(!) eight months before PH raid, and by that time everyone at IJN and Nakajima were absolutely sure that this new type would be IJN prime kanko type in 1942, reality proved them wrong but Nakajima were simply unable to reverse their production plans in early ’42 and switch some of their capacities back to B5N.

The situation with D3A was a bit better. Despite the fact that D4Y Suisei prototype was already flying in December 1940, it was clear that Aichi won’t be able to start mass production of this type in 1941 since Atsuta engine design was “wet” even by Japanese standards. With D4Y did not even figure in koku hombu replenishment plans, Val production at Aichi Funakata factory went somewhat smoothly in 1942. In “Aichi D3A1/2 Val” by Peter C. Smith one can find exact figures for Val production in 1942

April – 32 A1
May – 30 A1
June – 28 A1 + 1 A2
July – 25 A1
August – 17 A1 + 4 A2
September – 14 A2
October – 18 A2
November – 23 A2
December – 30 A2

Total – 132 D3A1 + 90 D3A2 = 222 Vals produced in 1942. Not a great achievement, but Vals were surely not in a short supply in 1942, so that IJN was even able to established new land –based Val units in spring ’42 (like 31st and 33rd Kokutai).

Val comprised the principal output of the Aichi Funakata factory until 1944, with D3A1 and -A2 being produced there until the latter were gradually phased out and output transferred to the Showa in Tokyo, so that Aichi itself could concentrate efforts on producing B7A. Ryusei was a much more complex a/c which required a major changes to quite simple machinery available at Funakata factory. Machinery upgrade at Funakata was completed in may ’44. Funakata didn’t produce a single D4Y, it was never planned to produce Judy there, so its output was not affected by D4Y or any other program.

Image
User avatar
EUBanana
Posts: 4255
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:48 pm
Location: Little England
Contact:

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by EUBanana »

These numbers are an order of magnitude away from the 600 Tonies a month you see in WitP.

...I really hope Japans industrial abilities are better modelled in AE.  Uber-Corsairs/CAP walls and uber-factories are probably less fun than historical Corsairs and CAP but historical factories, for both sides.
Image
User avatar
DivePac88
Posts: 3119
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: Somewhere in the South Pacific.

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by DivePac88 »

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

These numbers are an order of magnitude away from the 600 Tonies a month you see in WitP.

...I really hope Japans industrial abilities are better modelled in AE.  Uber-Corsairs/CAP walls and uber-factories are probably less fun than historical Corsairs and CAP but historical factories, for both sides.

It is a well known fact that the Japanese aircraft industry in WW2 sucked, so I think if you restricted the Japanese player to historical output, then nobody is going to want to play as Japan
Image
When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way
User avatar
EUBanana
Posts: 4255
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:48 pm
Location: Little England
Contact:

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: DivePac88
It is a well known fact that the Japanese aircraft industry in WW2 sucked, so I think if you restricted the Japanese player to historical output, then nobody is going to want to play as Japan

I'd be happy to see Japanese Tony production no better than Allied P38 production, myself... when its ten times as much (and five times higher than reality) I think something is up!

It's countered by P47s blowing through them like they were smoke, but thats ahistorical as well.
Image
User avatar
DivePac88
Posts: 3119
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:50 pm
Location: Somewhere in the South Pacific.

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by DivePac88 »

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

I'd be happy to see Japanese Tony production no better than Allied P38 production, myself... when its ten times as much (and five times higher than reality) I think something is up!

It's countered by P47s blowing through them like they were smoke, but thats ahistorical as well.

I have run Japan in a CHS PBEM game (against Ramjet), and I can tell you that where building 400 Tony’s a month is possible. It would be putting a serious strain on HI, and engines, and that if Japan has only conquered her historical recourse centers, that 500 fighters total production would be pushing it.
Image
When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way
User avatar
EUBanana
Posts: 4255
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:48 pm
Location: Little England
Contact:

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: DivePac88
I have run Japan in a CHS PBEM game (against Ramjet), and I can tell you that where building 400 Tony’s a month is possible. It would be putting a serious strain on HI, and engines, and that if Japan has only conquered her historical recourse centers, that 500 fighters total production would be pushing it.

Well, I think a lot of this sort of thing is precisely because Japan conquers a lot more than her historical resource centres (taking most of China + India seems to practically be a benchmark of Japanese success these days) and has a lot more merchant shipping and a lot less logistical issues than in reality. All these advantages combine create a snowball effect.

It looks like AE broadly speaking fixes a lot of these fundamental issues. The exact same industrial model would yield very different results with reworked merchant hulls and such, after all.

So I'm pretty optimistic re. AE and looking forward to it.

...I do hope 600 Tonies a month as a result of conquering half the planet isn't going to be a likely feature though.
Image
User avatar
castor troy
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Austria

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
ORIGINAL: DivePac88
It is a well known fact that the Japanese aircraft industry in WW2 sucked, so I think if you restricted the Japanese player to historical output, then nobody is going to want to play as Japan

I'd be happy to see Japanese Tony production no better than Allied P38 production, myself... when its ten times as much (and five times higher than reality) I think something is up!

It's countered by P47s blowing through them like they were smoke, but thats ahistorical as well.


it´s all that easy. If the Japanese player in a PBEM achieves only (or even achieves less) than what was conquered in real life and if the Allied achieves (or achieves more) with his subs what was achieved in real life than there´s no way at all to see a Japanese production being out of the whack. When you see those numbers you state than it´s because either the Japanese have conquered the whole map (which has to be questioned anyway) or they have stopped parts of their ship production or whatever other production. What you shouldn´t forget also is that while the Japanese player is building hundreds of Tonies, or Jacks, or Franks or Frances, he probably won´t build hundreds of Zeroes, Oscars, Nates, Betties or whatever at the same time too. I´m one of the more or less succesful players usually when taking over the Japanese and I can tell you (and my AARs) prove it, that the TOTAL number of Japanese aircraft I produce are LOWER than the TOTAL number of Japanese aircraft produced in real life.

Hard to imagine but that´s how it is. Of course the question remains if the Japanese aircraft industry would have been able to build those numbers of "top notch" aircraft. I would say no. But play this game and take on Corsairs with Nates in mid 43. Have fun with the game, you can only play it against the AI then. Not just because you wouldn´t find a Japanese PBEM player, guess there wouldn´t be a sense to play the Allied side either.

Wrecking havoc with the Allied in PBEM (even more so against the AI) is no problem at all. Those claims that always come up that the Japanese is totally overpowered industrial wise only comes from a couple of AARs that see a Japanese going totally out of the line. Like in my ongoing PBEM, it´s end 43 and I´m still on the offensive. Usually, the Allied kill off the Japanese in 44. More than in real life as the usual PBEM won´t see 45 due to a totally trashed Japanese industry, Navy, Airforce, etc.

When you take PBEMs as the prove if something is ok or not than 9 out of 10 PBEMs show you that the Allied "win" far earlier than they did in real life.
User avatar
Subchaser
Posts: 1015
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 1:16 pm

RE: Kates BY SHATTERED SWORD

Post by Subchaser »

There is an error in Shattered Sword I think. According to Munitions Ministry Documents (Seikocha v4. Koku Seiki Sokyoku Gatami) 126 B5N2 were produced in 1942. USSBS gives almost the same figure - 125

USSBS Corporation Report No.V Apendix C
Aichi Ettoru Factory B5N Actual Production in 1942
June – 2; July – 2; August – 3; September – 8;
October – 9; November – 13; December – 18
Total – 55 B5Ns
USSBS Corporation Report No.XIX Apendix B
11th Naval Arsenal B5N Actual Production in 1942
April – 5; May – 5; June – 5; July – 5; August – 10
September – 10; October – 10; November – 10; December – 10
Total – 70 B5Ns

Some sources indicate that Nakajima produced one more B5N2 in september 1942, special variant with fully protected fuel tanks of reduced capacity, aircraft ended up in service with Zuikaku air group. It seems unlikely but what if Parshall and Alsleben somehow missed the data for 11th arsenal? They’ve accepted 55 Kates produced by Aichi as a complete figure for 1942 and added that mysterious Kate produced by Nakajima, and here you go – 56 Kates in 1942.

The last paragraph on the page 89 leaves wrong impression. They actually say there that Japan produced just 56 carrier attack aircraft, both dive and torpedo bombers. This figure is wrong. Japan produced 348 carrier attack aircraft in 1942, 126 Kates and 222 Vals.
Image
Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”