Just in case...

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pasternakski
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RE: Just in case...

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: madgamer

UH.......while your doing all this stuff I assume you find time to play LOL. Like all issues there are two sides and I feel that I should not have to go through all that for a download only game.
Fellow Hawkeye-type dude. Burning a CD takes only a couple of minutes, then you have it 'til death do us part. And I inventory and index all my electronic stuff. If you don't you're gonna waste more time finding things than you spent on record keeping. I just enjoy being organized and knowing not only what I've got, but also, where it is.
Recording the activation key in some downloads does no good because you have to get a new one every time you reinstall.
Then they ain't selling their junk to me.
Nobody forces us to buy by a particular method we choose it ourselves so you play the song your way and I will play iot mine.

Madgamer
But I'm such a better musician than you are...
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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madgamer2
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RE: Just in case...

Post by madgamer2 »

I am not sure how you found out I was even a musician but after out trio's performance today at a outdoor gig I would
have to say that just about EVERYONE was better than me LOL/

Madgamer
If your not part of the solution
You are part of the problem
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Just in case...

Post by JudgeDredd »

Past

I understand your point that digital manuals give you the freedom to do as you please...but it's all I can do to muster the time to get any wargaming time at all, nevermind reading a manual and completely forget all that editing/annotating/rewriting malarky.

No - I like a nice printed manual. Sure they become out of date, but I spend all day looking at a computer screen at work, reading/writing and rewriting code - I really, really do not want to come home and read on the screen.

Which is why Matrix has it down pat - best of both worlds. If I want a digital download because I think the manual isn't required (Close Combat The Longest Day), then I do digital download. Sure the manual has useful stuff in it, but 50 - 100 pages I can do on a computer screen. Crown of Glory Emperors Edition - wanted a manual so bought the physical and digital. Nice physical manual to read (although I do wish Matrix would go the 3 colour route again).

In other words, I make my purchase based on the item. If I don't think the manual will offer much, I do DD. If I think the manual is a must have to play the game, I do physical.

Thank you Matrix Games for giving me that flexibility.

And now, for more advertising, head on over to...[:'(]
Alba gu' brath
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Charles2222
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RE: Just in case...

Post by Charles2222 »

JD: I certainly understand the want for a physical manual, as it at least offers something you can chew on for those times without a computer. OTOH, I have the feeling you do not realize the full potential of the computer method. For pdf's, there are two search buttons. From what I remember, the one you really want is the one that is more obscure and was in the top-right portion of the screen. So let's say you want to look at supply. You type that word in and it pulls up every instance of the word in a list, along with some immediate text surrounding the word. What this does is make it very easy to distinguish one portion of supply data from another, without having to go to every link to find out, then, of course, when you have discovered which one you want you simply click on the link and there you are in the manual. It beats the snot out of reading a manual as far as I'm concerned, since I don't have to worry about some sub-clause somewhere where my real answer may be wanted and end up missing it. The only fear may be if what you're looking for is called something else and therefore one has to use more imagination on the word searched. I say all of this having something of a fear of reading manuals though the computer myself, but with the speed and ease of doing these sort of searches it's less a burden and more of a pleasure; at least compared to spending 30 minutes or more at a time trying to find some sentence or two placed in some obscure portion of a printed manual. If you haven't tried this particular search function I have spoke of, give it a whirl sometime and like me you may be pleasantly surprised; just don't go reading the pdf all at one time like you would a book though[X(].

As far as pdf's being updateable, well that's all they are, as I've still to this day yet to find anybody who has updates one for the player (you must recall how this was a selling point of virtually all companies getting rid of printed manuals).

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Greybriar
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RE: Just in case...

Post by Greybriar »

Nothing can replace a printed paper manual. If my computer is down, I can still read it. If my electricity goes off, I can read it by candlelight. I can take a paper manual with me anywhere I go and don't have to plug it in or buy batteries for it.

On the other hand, .pdf manuals are nice, too. There are many advantages to them as Charles pointed out. But it takes a lot of ink to print out a lengthy .pdf manual and even if I were to go to the expense of printing one, the result isn't nearly as attractive as a manual made by a professional printer.

To have the best of both worlds, what I do with games I *really* like is to buy the initial release (most of them come with a printed paper manual; at least they used to). A few years down the road after all the expansions have been added and/or all the patches have been applied, I buy the compilation pack or the Gold Edition--whichever is appropriate--that has the .pdf manual on disk.
This war is not about slavery. --Robert E. Lee
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pasternakski
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RE: Just in case...

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
As far as pdf's being updateable, well that's all they are, as I've still to this day yet to find anybody who has updates one for the player (you must recall how this was a selling point of virtually all companies getting rid of printed manuals).
Well, Charles, I have the luxury of owning Adobe Acrobat, which allows you full access to, and control over, PDFs. You can insert your own illustrations (screenshots and the like) rearrange things, edit for sense, and, above all, CONDENSE.

As an editor of over three decades experience, I can tell you that it is a rare wargame manual, indeed, that is not vastly improved by ripping out and discarding about half of it.

For me, it's all part of learning and enjoying games. The manual I put together for WitP is almost completely original. It contains, for example, a lot of material gleaned from the postings of many of the highly experienced WitP maniacs around here.

One other thing that's really nice is the ability to link with other archived documents, so that you can immediately access more detailed information from secondary sources that you have created and tucked away on your hard drive, external drive, memory stick, CD, or what have you.

As far as "all this" turning into a full-time job, I guess I don't mind spending a little time at it because it helps so much in the learning and analyzing process. First turn for the Japanese in a new WitP PBEM game taking too long? Shoot, I've got eight or ten saved that have served me well in the past. I just fire up the game, open my archive, select the start I want, and enter the orders. Takes maybe 10 minutes. You see, there is some time-saving method in my madness after all, JD...

Can't wait to rip that nasty AE manual to shreds ... maybe I'll just toss it and start fresh ...
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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pasternakski
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RE: Just in case...

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: madgamer

I am not sure how you found out I was even a musician but after out trio's performance today at a outdoor gig I would
have to say that just about EVERYONE was better than me LOL/

Madgamer
When you're good, it usually stays in the club, but when you're bad, the stink travels a long, long way.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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pasternakski
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RE: Just in case...

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

Nothing can replace a printed paper manual. If my computer is down, I can still read it. If my electricity goes off, I can read it by candlelight. I can take a paper manual with me anywhere I go and don't have to plug it in or buy batteries for it.
One of the many reasons I prefer my method (and it is, of course, merely a matter of taste, and I'm not here to criticize or demean anybody's lousy sense of taste...). When I've got it the way I want it, I can publish myself a printed copy and enjoy my handiwork.

And be careful reading those 300 page manuals by candlelight there, Honest Abe, you'll be blind as a bat before long.
On the other hand, .pdf manuals are nice, too. There are many advantages to them as Charles pointed out. But it takes a lot of ink to print out a lengthy .pdf manual
Great fallacy of our age. If you're gonna squeeze pennies by continuing to buy the ancient technology that is a desktop printer with ink cartridges in it instead of a good laserjet, I can't help you. Mine has paid for itself many times over in the savings from ink cartridges (color printing costs me about 6-7 cents per page, including paper).
... and even if I were to go to the expense of printing one, the result isn't nearly as attractive as a manual made by a professional printer.
Bah. It doesn't take much these days to turn yourself into a top-notch desktop publisher. Print shops, in my experience, are notoriously unimaginative and just plain lousy in terms of quality and reliability.
To have the best of both worlds, what I do with games I *really* like is to buy the initial release (most of them come with a printed paper manual; at least they used to).
Isn't it wonderful how the information age put an end to that huge, gluttonous need for paper copies of everything? Maybe in the 22nd century...
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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Greybriar
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RE: Just in case...

Post by Greybriar »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

....I'm not here to criticize or demean anybody's lousy sense of taste....

That reminded me of the guy who asked, "Do you still beat your wife?"
This war is not about slavery. --Robert E. Lee
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pasternakski
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RE: Just in case...

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

....I'm not here to criticize or demean anybody's lousy sense of taste....

That reminded me of the guy who asked, "Do you still beat your wife?"
Thanks for being a good sport and putting up with my tasteless attempt at humor.

And I know I get a little too wound up in the editorial and desktop publishing thing. My dear wife, in one of her rare moments, called me the most anal retentive SOB she ever met.

We had a strange and wonderful relationship. She was strange. I was wonderful.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
sapper_astro
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RE: Just in case...

Post by sapper_astro »

I have heard people saying how a laser printer is excellent for printing manuals. When I checked them out, the printers were fairly cheap now, but the toners cost quite a bit. What is the difference in page amounts that you get between an ink jet and a laser printer?
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Charles2222
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RE: Just in case...

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
As far as pdf's being updateable, well that's all they are, as I've still to this day yet to find anybody who has updates one for the player (you must recall how this was a selling point of virtually all companies getting rid of printed manuals).
Well, Charles, I have the luxury of owning Adobe Acrobat, which allows you full access to, and control over, PDFs. You can insert your own illustrations (screenshots and the like) rearrange things, edit for sense, and, above all, CONDENSE.

As an editor of over three decades experience, I can tell you that it is a rare wargame manual, indeed, that is not vastly improved by ripping out and discarding about half of it.

For me, it's all part of learning and enjoying games. The manual I put together for WitP is almost completely original. It contains, for example, a lot of material gleaned from the postings of many of the highly experienced WitP maniacs around here.

One other thing that's really nice is the ability to link with other archived documents, so that you can immediately access more detailed information from secondary sources that you have created and tucked away on your hard drive, external drive, memory stick, CD, or what have you.

As far as "all this" turning into a full-time job, I guess I don't mind spending a little time at it because it helps so much in the learning and analyzing process. First turn for the Japanese in a new WitP PBEM game taking too long? Shoot, I've got eight or ten saved that have served me well in the past. I just fire up the game, open my archive, select the start I want, and enter the orders. Takes maybe 10 minutes. You see, there is some time-saving method in my madness after all, JD...

Can't wait to rip that nasty AE manual to shreds ... maybe I'll just toss it and start fresh ...
Yes, well you do present the other side of this, that the "user" is updating the manual, but this issue had always been presented as those who made the manuals would update it. That of course is used to excuse their not providing a manual, but since they never update it, it's just empty rhetoric. I have never seen anybody claim that getting rid of the manual was better because the user could then update it, but that the publishers could update it, because nobody wants to spend time putting unofficial data together, especially the opinions of this board and their information, apart from you that is. So what do you do when you have two different opinions and both seem plausible? I suppose you have to get the publisher slightly involved then, do you not?
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pasternakski
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RE: Just in case...

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

I have heard people saying how a laser printer is excellent for printing manuals. When I checked them out, the printers were fairly cheap now, but the toners cost quite a bit. What is the difference in page amounts that you get between an ink jet and a laser printer?
I buy toner in bulk, mostly because, despite being retired, I am still active in professions that demand production of documents - if they would just let me produce electronic documents, it would be great, but I have business with various courts and European and African governments, and they just mess up whatever I send them electronically, so I give 'em the hard copy to keep their 19th century butts happy.

Toner lasts far longer than ink. The printer you feed it into is far more advanced than the HP 1500 series Mrs. Wannacum uses to print out her e-mail and recipes. When you get low, you just scoop some more out of your supply and throw 'er in. As I said earlier, my cost for color copies averages around eight American cents per page. If I wanted to print all 320 pages of the gross abomination (known as the "WitP AE manual") that, according to the Reverend Mother could never become the Kwisatz Haderach, it would cost me about thirty bucks American (plus wear and tear to my printer, one of the primary reasons I would likely never print it).

Prices vary wildly from market to market, but a little comparison shopping can yield huge savings. Even at that, the typical ink cartridge for desktop inkjet printers (dare I mention the likes of Hewlett-Packard?) is exorbitantly expensive.

I am not being critical here (of course, you know what a magnanimous a-hole I am). The companies involved in printer technology for households and small business have to gouge - I mean - "profitabilitize" to the extent they can before the world wakes up to the idea, "Hey! What do I need to print this for, when the electronic document is cheaper, easier to maintain, and I can fiddle around with it all I want for free?"

When Mr. Suburban "Iactlikeacomputerliteratebutireallydon'tknowcrap" and Ms. Soccermom "Iwantpeopletothinki'mkewlsoIuseapooter" stop subsidizing this nonsense, the world can go ahead and grow up a little.

But don't get me started on what has to be done with god...
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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pasternakski
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RE: Just in case...

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
Yes, well you do present the other side of this, that the "user" is updating the manual, but this issue had always been presented as those who made the manuals would update it. That of course is used to excuse their not providing a manual, but since they never update it, it's just empty rhetoric. I have never seen anybody claim that getting rid of the manual was better because the user could then update it, but that the publishers could update it, because nobody wants to spend time putting unofficial data together, especially the opinions of this board and their information, apart from you that is. So what do you do when you have two different opinions and both seem plausible? I suppose you have to get the publisher slightly involved then, do you not?
But, see, Charles, that's just why I'd rather do it myself. They can give me update and revision notes, and, as soon as I've understood them to the extent you can ever decipher words written by people who relate more successfully to "1010101010101001010111100001," queried them, and gotten an explanation that makes even a modicum of sense, you can translate the whole mess into the language you speak most fluently (I'm partial to that Ethiopian dialect of Sanskrit, myself) and stick it into your manual where you want and in the form and organization that works best for you.

And it's all about you, right? It's not them, it's you. Right? They're wrong. Not you.

Right?
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
sapper_astro
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:10 pm

RE: Just in case...

Post by sapper_astro »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

I have heard people saying how a laser printer is excellent for printing manuals. When I checked them out, the printers were fairly cheap now, but the toners cost quite a bit. What is the difference in page amounts that you get between an ink jet and a laser printer?
I buy toner in bulk, mostly because, despite being retired, I am still active in professions that demand production of documents - if they would just let me produce electronic documents, it would be great, but I have business with various courts and European and African governments, and they just mess up whatever I send them electronically, so I give 'em the hard copy to keep their 19th century butts happy.

Toner lasts far longer than ink. The printer you feed it into is far more advanced than the HP 1500 series Mrs. Wannacum uses to print out her e-mail and recipes. When you get low, you just scoop some more out of your supply and throw 'er in. As I said earlier, my cost for color copies averages around eight American cents per page. If I wanted to print all 320 pages of the gross abomination (known as the "WitP AE manual") that, according to the Reverend Mother could never become the Kwisatz Haderach, it would cost me about thirty bucks American (plus wear and tear to my printer, one of the primary reasons I would likely never print it).

Prices vary wildly from market to market, but a little comparison shopping can yield huge savings. Even at that, the typical ink cartridge for desktop inkjet printers (dare I mention the likes of Hewlett-Packard?) is exorbitantly expensive.

I am not being critical here (of course, you know what a magnanimous a-hole I am). The companies involved in printer technology for households and small business have to gouge - I mean - "profitabilitize" to the extent they can before the world wakes up to the idea, "Hey! What do I need to print this for, when the electronic document is cheaper, easier to maintain, and I can fiddle around with it all I want for free?"

When Mr. Suburban "Iactlikeacomputerliteratebutireallydon'tknowcrap" and Ms. Soccermom "Iwantpeopletothinki'mkewlsoIuseapooter" stop subsidizing this nonsense, the world can go ahead and grow up a little.

But don't get me started on what has to be done with god...

Damn you are a funny bugger. [:D]

I usually just print out the tutorial for a new game, costs being what they are for paper and, especially, ink. I check out bits and pieces of the manual on the computer when I need to.

As for the toners, what amount constitutes 'bulk' when you buy it? I can get them a lot cheaper than most people by ordering them through a wholesale company, but the prices are still pretty heavy.
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pasternakski
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RE: Just in case...

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro
Damn you are a funny bugger. [:D]
You know, I said exactly those words about 15 minutes ago just before I squashed an insect whose genus and species I could not exactly identify, but whose anatomy told me, "If you don't kill me, I'm gonna sting ya."

I had a Vietnamese girlfriend once, long ago in a galaxy far away, who had that same kind of attitude.

Please understand, she was Vietnamese, not a bug.
As for the toners, what amount constitutes 'bulk' when you buy it? I can get them a lot cheaper than most people by ordering them through a wholesale company, but the prices are still pretty heavy.
I have had good luck buying in five kilogram per color, ten kilogram for black quantities, although I realize that most people would not use that much in a lifetime. As you mention, it's spendy, but my cost per page is about eight cents American per page of finished printed material. My cost if I was to print the entire 320-page AE manual before hacking and slashing it to usable (and competently edited) size? About 30 bucks...
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
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