Sell me the game!

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sapper_astro
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Sell me the game!

Post by sapper_astro »

Yes, it has happened; The time where you only have funds for one game, and there are several that you want, as usual...

This time, I seriously cannot make up my mind on a number of them. So I will list them, and add in the reason I have not purchased them yet, though I really love most of what I hear/learned about each one. Let me know how/why I am wrong, and tell me which game you would buy out of these games. I am totally stumped at the moment.

1: Guns of August: Apparently the UI is bad, and the manual even worse.

2: WW2 road to victory: Apparently a new game is coming "soon". How soon, and how it will be is in question, along with what improvements will be made.

3: Commander Napoleon at War: Some people have said it is grossly unhistoric.

4: Commander WW2: This is vying with WW2 RtV at the moment.

5: Carriers at war: Loved the old versions and still play them, and people have said this is basically the same game with some better graphics, but far less scenarios/less user friendly scenario builder.

6: Battlefront: heard that the game is basically forgotten and no more scenarios are being made.

7: Kharkov Disaster on the Donetz: Again, the lack of scenarios apparently hurts it.

So there you have it. These are the titles that are currently in my sights.

Edit: See my post below for more information.
I am also thinking on the American Civil War games available, but cannot decide on one.
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Sarge
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Sarge »

I know its not on your list , but recommend holding out for the WIF release
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by JudgeDredd »

1. Yes to both...apparently a great game and I did like the feel of it, but the UI beat me I'm afraid
2. Not my cup of tea. I've had enough of strategic action - the AI simply can't cope. I played it for a few days and never went back. I think I gave it away.
3. Loved No4 initially but went off it quite quickly when I found some deficincies - so I never visited this as it was based on the same engine. I also didn't like the fact it was written (I believe) in Java and the refresh issues I had running it
4. See above
5. Great concept poorly implemented in my book. There should've been a lot more game there. The tactical element simply wasn't there and I found in the end there was very little to keep you occupied.
6. Don't know about it, but I have heard also that it's been "dropped"
7. Great game.
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Lützow
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Lützow »

As told in the other thread: if you're going for an entry-level game, have a look for Advanced Tactics as well. Regarding grand strategy I'd rather recommend HoI 2, which should sell for around $10 and offers by far more depth than the poorly conceived Commander series. Since you mentioned Kharkov, I'd also point toward 'Battles in Normandy' demo. This gives you a glance about the SSG engine, even it's an older spin-off for sure.

Or you could reconsider and wait for WiF, which is due in july.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro
1: Guns of August: Apparently the UI is bad, and the manual even worse.

The UI isn't great, but it's not an issue of complexity or bugs, just that it takes getting used to it. The manual was revised after release and from what I've read the revised manual was better received. There are a lot of folks that really love this game as far as WWI grand strategy and a lot of advice on strategy and gameplay has been written by players since release. Frank is also still updating this in his spare time.
2: WW2 road to victory: Apparently a new game is coming "soon". How soon, and how it will be is in question, along with what improvements will be made.

Yes, a new game is in the works. At this point I'd advise waiting for it, it has a lot of improvements.
3: Commander Napoleon at War: Some people have said it is grossly unhistoric.

It abstracts the operational layer onto the grand strategy scale. Some players can deal with this conceptually, others can't. I get it, so it doesn't bother me and it's definitely a fun game. However, if you're looking for realism in Napoleonic Grand Strategy, look at Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition. This is basically a Napoleonic 'Panzer General' in terms of complexity and realism. Fun game, just right for many folks who don't want complexity, not a simulation.
4: Commander WW2: This is vying with WW2 RtV at the moment.

Great game IMHO, much updated since release too (the early performance and AI issues have been resolved as far as I can see, with the exception that the AI still doesn't do much in North Africa).
5: Carriers at war: Loved the old versions and still play them, and people have said this is basically the same game with some better graphics, but far less scenarios/less user friendly scenario builder.

I think the scenario builder is great actually and more user-friendly than the original. Note that it was updated (with a scenario creation tutorial added) in a post-release update as well. The scenarios that come with it are certainly less than the ultimate collection that was built up over years with the original. However, for a quick 30-45 minute carrier battle, you really can't beat this one. It's a great seller and has a strong following. IMHO it's better in all respects than the original except in terms of scenario content. I expect more scenarios to be released in time.
6: Battlefront: heard that the game is basically forgotten and no more scenarios are being made.

Well, it was released and supported and a number of scenarios were added to it as well (see here:
http://www.ssg.com.au/?page=scenario ). However, it's been superceded system-wise by Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets. It's a single release wargame like many others, rather than an ongoing series. If you like the scale and the scenarios, it's a very good wargame.
7: Kharkov Disaster on the Donetz: Again, the lack of scenarios apparently hurts it.

See this link: http://www.ssg.com.au/?page=scenarios - any new scenarios should be posted there. I have high hopes for Kharkov and its system. I think the campaign/scenario that comes with it is one of the most fun and interesting that SSG has done, but there's no question that more scenarios would be welcome. The editor with this is fully documented and updated as well, so I expect we'll see more scenarios for the Kharkov engine in the future (in addition to the ones SSG is already working on, like AtD).

Regards,

- Erik
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killroyishere
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by killroyishere »

Instead of saying which one is best of the lot I'm going to recommend what I think it best in its place. It just appears except for the last one that you have picked every meh game Matrixgames has published imho.

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

Yes, it has happened; The time where you only have funds for one game, and there are several that you want, as usual...

This time, I seriously cannot make up my mind on a number of them. So I will list them, and add in the reason I have not purchased them yet, though I really love most of what I hear/learned about each one. Let me know how/why I am wrong, and tell me which game you would buy out of these games. I am totally stumped at the moment.
1: Guns of August: Apparently the UI is bad, and the manual even worse.

Here I would recommend finding a little gem called "Ancient Art of War in the Skies", this was one of my favorite WWI games and is quite simple to play but damn hard to master that trench line.
2: WW2 road to victory: Apparently a new game is coming "soon". How soon, and how it will be is in question, along with what improvements will be made.

Here I would recommend "Making History:The Calm and the Storm", it's turn based HOI actualy and the ai is a damn sight better.
3: Commander Napoleon at War: Some people have said it is grossly unhistoric.

I'm going to agree with Eric on this one "Crown of Glory" EE edition is probably the best grand scale strategic & tactical scale game around and well worth the money
4: Commander WW2: This is vying with WW2 RtV at the moment.

This is truely a light version or wannabe Panzer General, but, imho "Strategic Command 2 + Warfare expansion and SC2 Pacific War are the better choice for your money. A lot more game in them and the ai once again is better.
5: Carriers at war: Loved the old versions and still play them, and people have said this is basically the same game with some better graphics, but far less scenarios/less user friendly scenario builder.

Check out some of the naval games from NWSonline.com I'm not a big shipman but I've read they put out some great naval strategy games.
6: Battlefront: heard that the game is basically forgotten and no more scenarios are being made.

Why you would want this game is beyond me when "Steel Panthers Generals Edition" would give you so much more and a lot more enjoyment.
7: Kharkov Disaster on the Donetz: Again, the lack of scenarios apparently hurts it.

This is the only one I might recommend, as well as "Battles in Italy" and "Battles in Normandy" lots of player mad scenarios for this series.

So there you have it. These are the titles that are currently in my sights.

Good luck in your choice.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
Here I would recommend finding a little gem called "Ancient Art of War in the Skies", this was one of my favorite WWI games and is quite simple to play but damn hard to master that trench line.

I recall that being a fun game, but how old is that now, does it still work on modern systems? And does that have anything to do with WWI grand strategy?
Here I would recommend "Making History:The Calm and the Storm", it's turn based HOI actualy and the ai is a damn sight better.

This is truely a light version or wannabe Panzer General, but, imho "Strategic Command 2 + Warfare expansion and SC2 Pacific War are the better choice for your money. A lot more game in them and the ai once again is better.

Those are both good recommendations, though when it comes to WW2 Grand Strategy I also have to strongly recommend Gary Grigsby's A World Divided. Covers the whole world and IMHO has great gameplay, good AI and a realistic feel without being too complex.
Check out some of the naval games from NWSonline.com I'm not a big shipman but I've read they put out some great naval strategy games.

They do, though most of these are battle simulators IIRC rather than campaign scenarios. I think their newest release has a campaign aspect, but is also still being worked on. The reason CAW was re-done is that it was such a fan favorite and still is. It really packs a lot of wargaming into a short time.
Why you would want this game is beyond me when "Steel Panthers Generals Edition" would give you so much more and a lot more enjoyment.

Sorry to nitpick, but Battlefront and SPWAW: General's Edition are completely different games. SPWAW: General's Edition is fantastic and has arguably the best campaign system of any tactical game, but it's a tactical scale game whereas Battlefront deals in operational warfare. In SPWAW you're controlling individual tanks, in Battlefront you're controlling battalions. I assumed the original poster was interested in these games for their scale and subject matter.

Regards,

- Erik
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sapper_astro
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by sapper_astro »

I am reading through the suggestions, so I will add in the main wargames I own and play, along with a couple of "sure buys" that I have already hidden money away for.

Games to be bought:

Battles for the Bulge - Panther. This will be an auto buy without any need for checks.

World in Flames - ADG. After an initial waiting period to make sure the AI is at least average, I should be buying this.


Wargames I own that I play regularly since I have bought them:

Conquest of the Aegean. I don't need to go into detail here. Brilliant game and system.

All close combat games. Always loved Close Combat.

Both Panzer Commander games. These dove tail in with Combat mission.

Combat Mission games. See above. I have a love of the Tactical combat/Squad Leader type battles as you can see [;)].

Birth of America 1. This one took me by surprise. A nice, elegant system. Pity about the WW1 game they made. Perhaps one of their other games is good..?

Battles in Italy. A truly excellent oldschool game, with quite a few user scenarios. I take it Kharkov is much improved over this one?

Carriers at war (not the real C64 original, of which I still have my A4 sized copy here[;)] but the early 90's version. I have CAW1+2 plus the construction kit and many other scenarios).

Original Battlefront system games on emulator. Yes, I still play them. along with...

War in Russia, the Great war in the East. GG's Russia game killed my brain, so I play this old slugger now and again on my C64 emulator. It isn't the most accurate game, but something about it keeps me plugging away with it.

Old Panzer General games. Yep, I still play them. 1, AG, PacG, PG2, and Scorched Earth. Hell, I even still play Fantasy General[:D]

Tiller's Campaign series (West Front, EF2, etc). Currently still trying to win with the French. I play my originals after going through hell to get them working on an XP series.

I enjoy all of the above immensely. This still leaves a few holes though. A grand strategy game for a)WW2 (this may be filled by WIF) b)A Napoleonic game c)an American Civil War game and d)a WW1 game.

It looks like the recommendations are swinging towards Kharkov at the moment, though hopefully I will get more suggestions and feedback based on what I have added here.
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro
I enjoy all of the above immensely. This still leaves a few holes though. A grand strategy game for a)WW2 (this may be filled by WIF) b)A Napoleonic game c)an American Civil War game and d)a WW1 game.

For a) you could really do worse than Gary Grigsby's A World Divided. I think it strikes a good balance between ease of play and realism. With that said, the other recommendations (CEAW, MH, SC2, WW2) are also good ones.

For b) given your existing tastes I would go with Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition. Start with the Simple Economy.

For c) that's a really tough choice. Do you want tactical or grand strategy? The John Tiller's Civil War collection can't be beat for bang for the buck tactically. Grand strategy wise is where I get in trouble, because there are three current ACW grand strategy games and all are outstanding. Gary Grigsby's War Between the States, AGEOD's American Civil War and Forge of Freedom. WBTS is the quickest to play, AACW the slowest, FOF is in between. Scale wise it's the same, AACW is an operational scale extended across the entire war, FOF is grand strategy with lots of extra "bling" including tactical combat and WBTS is probably the most "pure" grand strategy game. I seriously think any ACW buff needs all three, there have never been better ACW computer games than right now IMHO.
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sapper_astro
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by sapper_astro »

Hey Erik,

I will think about the first two recommendations you have given. Only problem is that I own the originals[:D] GG's WaW is still a game I have a dash with every pancake day. CoG I really wanted to like, but you hit the nail on the head: the economy. It seriously made me tear my hair out, though I enjoyed the battles and various other little missions you could send your diplomats on, etc.

As for the ACW game, that is the problem. I have tried sifting through them and gave up. Hopefully my tastes will help someone here identify which of them might fit.

Edit: The WW2 Grand strategy game I am looking for at the moment is something that fits the "Boardgame" feel of TSR's ETO/PTO, Totaler Krieg, WiF...Guess I should just hold off until WiF, though I hope it will be fully "cooked" by that time.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Erik Rutins »

Sapper,
ORIGINAL: sapper_astro
I will think about the first two recommendations you have given. Only problem is that I own the originals[:D] GG's WaW is still a game I have a dash with every pancake day. CoG I really wanted to like, but you hit the nail on the head: the economy. It seriously made me tear my hair out, though I enjoyed the battles and various other little missions you could send your diplomats on, etc.

Ah, too bad you didn't upgrade to AWD while that discount was running. I consider AWD a huge improvement over WAW personally, I would always play that instead of the original if given the choice.

COG:EE is IMHO night and day compared to original COG especially for people who had trouble with the economy, but it's improved in many, many, many areas. The new simple economy basically just gets the economy out of the player's way. For those who want to deal with the advanced economy, it's also very well explained now and there's an additional separate guide just release on that by Bryan Morgan. Detailed battles, improvements and experience, naval combat, it's all much improved.

Ok, I really need to stop being a salesman (but look at your thread title, you asked for it [;)])
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sapper_astro
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by sapper_astro »

Please continue. If you really feel one of the games would not fit my tastes, just don't mention it. [:D]

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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Arsan »

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro


As for the ACW game, that is the problem. I have tried sifting through them and gave up. Hopefully my tastes will help someone here identify which of them might fit.

Hi!
AGEOD ACW game is based on the same elegant BoA engine which you seem to like. [:)]
But its much improved and with quite a lot of new mechanics, details and possibilities. So its also more complex than BoA.
Its a great game and his support is extraordinary. Two years after release its still receiving regular patches than add new content and historical tweaks in addition to bug fixes. The new 1.14 patch should be released pretty soon.
And it have a very active community on the official AGEOD forums
http://www.ageod.com/forums/index.php
Even if not updated, the AACW demo should give you a good idea of how it plays.
You can get it here
http://www.ageod.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=115
Regards
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by JudgeDredd »

Regarding the ACW games, I can't say anything for AGEoDs AACW as I have it but never played it (on my wish list). However, GG War between the States and Forge of Freedom are probably two of the best games I own. I wouldn't part with either.
 
Forge of Freedom will take you a while to complete a campaign, even with Quick Battles (no detailed battles). GG WbtS you could play in a few hours. They really are both excellent games imo.
 
They are different beasts on the same war and both are excellent choices. I'd recommend both but then that's because I enjoy them...clearly your tastes may differ.
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by E »

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

Carriers at war (not the real C64 original, of which I still have my A4 sized copy here[;)] but the early 90's version. I have CAW1+2 plus the construction kit and many other scenarios).

C64 was the port (stock #202)... the the real original was for the Apple II (Stock #101).

One thing that is brought up often is the lack of scenarios for the current CAW. It actually has more than the original game! ...


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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Obsolete »

Did someone mention they still played Fantasy General?  I have to confess, for some reason I never did touch this one.  However I decided to take a look now, and will probably grab the abandonware copy.  Hopefully things work out well with DosBox.

The GUI looks a LOT like PG1, but since it's SSI, 1996 that is no surprise...


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sapper_astro
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by sapper_astro »

The model T didn't have many competitors E...Guess I grew used to my stack of scenarios and kept hearing how difficult it is to make new ones. If you have any news on this, let me know. It would be handy to hear whether SSG is going to make any additions to the CAW franchise this time as well. As for the Apple 2 version...we C64er's got our revenge. Saving money on the system, not mention when more colours were introduced into games[;)] yes, we got our revenge.

Thanks for the ACW info guys, unfortunately you have confused the subject more for me; They sound like they all have excellent qualities[:D]. I will have to agonise over it more. From no new ACW games, then suddenly there are three....and all of them with lunatics swearing that each one is the best. Ah well, better to have this conundrum than no good games at all!
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by sapper_astro »

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

Did someone mention they still played Fantasy General?  I have to confess, for some reason I never did touch this one.  However I decided to take a look now, and will probably grab the abandonware copy.  Hopefully things work out well with DosBox.

The GUI looks a LOT like PG1, but since it's SSI, 1996 that is no surprise...



Panzer General in Fantasy drag and even a few extras, like research, different paths through the game, etc. It is a great game, you will love it if you loved the PG games. While you have magic and all that jazz, most of the mechanics are quite similar.
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by Lützow »

Some more recommendations:

Steel Panthers as complement for JTCS. There are versions from Matrix and Shrapnell - both for free.

By enjoying WiR you could also try Pacific War and if you like this one, jumping to WitP, the Queen of grand strategy.

For civil war: WbtS. FoF and AACW are good but WbtS is brilliant.

Regarding Napoleonic I'd suggest CoG:EE, the rest isn't any good. Just consider that you can play either with advanced economy or have no economy at all to take care off, there is not really an intermediate level.
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RE: Sell me the game!

Post by E »

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

The model T didn't have many competitors E...Guess I grew used to my stack of scenarios and kept hearing how difficult it is to make new ones. If you have any news on this, let me know.

I just got a few more emailed to me last week (although I've already misplaced them before even trying them! (see the CAW forum to get them). I guess the hard part is making new maps. I've never been a scenario builder for any game, so I have zero actual knowledge.

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

It would be handy to hear whether SSG is going to make any additions to the CAW franchise this time as well.

I think the resounding silence on that question is a definitive answer. However, I think this version is the definitive version, in spite of a commonly perceived lack of additional scenarios. Note that it is a quick game as stated elsewhere... 30-60'ish minutes per play.

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

As for the Apple 2 version...we C64er's got our revenge. Saving money on the system, not mention when more colours were introduced into games[;)] yes, we got our revenge.

ROFL! Yeah, and you got to watch more movies while waiting for your games to load! That's okay, we probably broke even... my money went into the hardware, while yours went into popcorn. *grin*
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