Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

This sequel to the award-winning Crown of Glory takes Napoleonic Grand Strategy to a whole new level. This represents a complete overhaul of the original release, including countless improvements and innovations ranging from detailed Naval combat and brigade-level Land combat to an improved AI, unit upgrades, a more detailed Strategic Map and a new simplified Economy option. More historical AND more fun than the original!

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Kingmaker
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Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Kingmaker »

HiHi

Help please from anyone out there who understands the Game mechanics, ... me? I’m still confused as Hell [&:]

OK the background, this involves trade, in a PBEM game I’m playing Spain; now, it’s early in the game (1st year) and I have a fair amount of both Wool & Cotton stockpiled, and am seeking to do a deal with England whereby I supply him with the raw materials in exchange for some of his textiles (which I don’t have the capacity to produce)

So, I go to the ‘Trade’ panel to see what the going rate is, ‘Trade advisor’ is off, but I use the Advisors face and “This is reasonable” as a guide to current Market values, what I get is 2 Wool/Cotton for 2 Textiles (this is from Spains end and England, “don’t like us at all” i.e. any trade between us is not going to be cheap).

Now England quite reasonably from his point of view wants a Wool/Cotton to Textile ratio of 4-1 to cover the basic production cost, irrespective of the Market price, and suggest he would rather have his factories lay Idle as it’s not costing him anything to do so, than to pay the going Market value for the raw materials.

Here is where the confusion real hits home coz I maintain that in game terms (it certainly would in real life) it is costing him. My reasoning is that early on in any game England has a phenomenal advantage with its massed factory capacity (York, 8 factories, Midlands 6, Scotland & N Ireland 4) over its Continental Industrial rivals who have their capacity scattered all over their Nation.

So using York as an example with 8 factories, where each factory adds 25% (Tool tip figure, manual says 10% ???) to the production value of the raw materials this would seem to indicate to me that for every 8 Wool sent through York, 2.5 Textile will be produced, and that if this is so, that would help offset the import cost of Spains raw materials.

Again this is purely as I see it, but early on while England has the advantage with its massed Industrial capacity centred away from its capital (Prussia, Austria & france all are centred at 4 factories in their capitals where ideally you want to be concentrating on other developments than factories) it should take advantage of its capacity to forge ahead with Textiles for higher level units & Textile expensive products, for that it should gather in as many raw materials as possible from abroad (while building a home base production of Wool through farms), even though early on the price of Wool & Cotton are high, obviously later on in the game the price will come down as there is a greater abundance of the raw materials on the market. Is the above flawed thinking on my part? (I have been known to be wrong before! [8|])

Thoughts?

As mentioned above there is a difference in value of factory production between ‘Tool tip’ @ 25% & the manual @ 10%, there is also differing figures with regard to Food needed shown in the game eg in another game as Russia I’m told via the economy tab/‘Food production’ that, “Russian eats 212 food” while on the Developments page it states “Your people need 243 food” anyone any idea what goes down there? Cheers.

All the Best
Peter
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morganbj
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by morganbj »

Factories increase production of certain items by 10%.  But they have a 50% increase of the labor points produced by your population (.1 per each point, I think it is).  I'll have to play around to see if I can replicate the 25% you're talking about.  If I've seen it before, I've never paid attention to it.
 
The "population need food" is only an estimate.  What actually happens can be quite different.  I've always found that I consume less food that it says I will.
 
Keep in mind that the economy has a lot of variables.  Most of the numbers you see are only estimates, possibilities, liklihoods, except for the "after the fact" reports you can pull up.  Any country's economy, even today in the real world, cannot be truly understood.  We know this affects that, but not really how much, in some cases.  The COGEE economic model is a little bit like that.  While it's all based on formulas and algorithyms, it has some unpredictability.  That's what it's supposed to be like.  All I really need to understand is that factories help with production, farms with agriculture goods, roads with developments and population, and so on.  The variablity in what actually happens is great enough that it's folly to track things too closely.  So, if you try to account for every single Food point, or Cotton point, or whatever, COGEE will be very frustrating.
 
What you should do instead is to look at the economy from a strategic standpoint.  If you're running low on something at the national level, find a province that produces it well and shift some more production to it.  I personally don't spend a great deal of time looking at boxes and sliders when I play, at least not after the first turn.  I make some adjustments here and there, buy developments and so forth, but I don't spend time with a piece of paper and a calculator trying to squeeze one more Textile out of Paris.
 
In retrospect, it might have been a good idea to very carefully explain in the manual where the numbers come from.  In other words, does the "need food" estimate include troops' needs, or just the population's.  It's not very clear at all.  But, if you accept that this is an "advisor,"  well, advisors to kings, presidents, prime ministers, etc., are wrong all the time.  Take the numbers as "hand grenade" close, as we used to say.
 
But, here's really my point, you really don't need to immerse yourself into the details to the level that you might think.  Keep your eye on the national levels of goods, make good slider bar decisions at the province level every so often, and then ... attack your neighbor!
 
 
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by morganbj »

Oh, I see what you're talking about with the 25%.  That may be an error.  I think the manual is correct.  Eric?
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Mus »

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker

So using York as an example with 8 factories, where each factory adds 25% (Tool tip figure, manual says 10% ???) to the production value of the raw materials this would seem to indicate to me that for every 8 Wool sent through York, 2.5 Textile will be produced, and that if this is so, that would help offset the import cost of Spains raw materials.

Believe me, were that the case, I would be all over the deal.

What actually happens is, each factory (and again manual and game tooltip disagree 10% vs 25% but the percentage isnt really important here, whats important is game mechanics, not necessarily the amount) doesnt increase the production by X percent, what increases by X percent is the *capacity* to produce at any given assignment of labor in the textile field.

So even if factories are allowing me the *capacity* to produce 2.5 textiles instead of 1 at any given labor rate I would still need 4 wool or 4 cotton for every 1 textile produced.

For whatever reason, the AI trade advisor seems to think that wool or cotton for textiles at a 1 to 1 ratio is a "good trade" while in reality thats insane.
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Hard Sarge »

But...

just remember, that all trade is not really about the deal, it is about getting the trade

lots of the trades are not really good or needed

look at Turkey, they make a lot of silly trades, but they need stuff, and they need friends (it is a royal pain, to be bringing in some 200 bucks a month from tradeing with a Nation and then a case comes up where you could go to a easy war with them, do you break off all that free money or do you just sit back)


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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Mus »

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

just remember, that all trade is not really about the deal, it is about getting the trade

Yeah within reason a person might forfeit some profit on a trade in order to come to a mutual arrangement or with an ally or to offer aid to an ally, turn an enemy into a trading partner, etc.

The example given though is so skewed as to be completely unacceptable. Lets say you had 40 domestic cotton/wool production. Enough to make 10 textiles. The trade advisor thinks trading 1 textile for 1 cotton or wool is a good trade. Is it really, knowing that it takes 4 cotton or wool to produce 1 textile? Of course not.

If I traded all 10 of the textiles produced in that situation to another player for 10 cotton or wool, enough to make 2 textiles and have 2 raw materials left over, I would then be making 12 textiles a turn and giving away 10, keeping 2 textiles, a net loss of 8 textiles.
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Hard Sarge »

sure, on the surface

but in my game, I needed food, badly, I started tradeing all the Textiles and cotton I had, away, and had all my labor trying to grow food, soon, I had no Textiles myself, but finally got enough food to get by

and to be honest, none of those Textile for food trades were good, or fair

but I agree, that cotton for Textile is a bad trade, and I don't think the AI even looks at it like that

I have seen it offer 15 gold, for 5 Textile, but it will give you 5 Textiles for 8 or 10 gold ?

but again, I let all the brains work on the Ecc side of things, I did the war and battle side
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Kingmaker »

HiHi

Thanks to both BJ & HS for your input in this discussion, Mus and I obviously see things from differing points of view.

Apologies BJ, I do take on board your suggestions re not getting too bogged down with the minutiae, but I’m one of those perverts that do like fiddling with the finer details [>:] . I get a sort of, “Ah, got one!” moment when say an extra Horse or Wine appears after fiddling with the Agriculture slider; at the same time I do realise that it may not actually appear next turn due to other factors.

One of the underlying problems seems to me to be the difference between perceptions of ‘Capacity’ & ‘Production’, now I’m looking at it like this, and I reiterate, I may well be wrong.

Capacity = the Factory, in real life terms what the Mill owner has invested his money & resources into to produce finished goods at a faster rate from the raw materials than (for the CoG period) Home based outsourcing.

Production = the actual goods turned out by the Factory, and that’s where the 25% or 10% becomes a key issue as it represents how well the Factory can increase the yield from the raw materials, 4 Wool or 4 Cotton (so in the 25% or 10% case, the 25% on the 'Tool tip' would be nearer the reality).

If the above is true, then that would make ... So using York as an example with 8 factories, where each factory adds 25% (Tool tip figure, manual says 10% ???) to the production value of the raw materials this would seem to indicate to me that for every 8 Wool sent through York, 2.5 Textile will be produced, and that if this is so, that would help offset the import cost of Spains raw materials. ... a valid deduction, and that’s what I want to know.

just remember, that all trade is not really about the deal, it is about getting the trade. Living up to your ‘Hard’ name there HS [:D] , but quite right, if you need/want the raw materials, you pay the Market price, and if there is negative attitude between the 2 Nations then you pay more; to my way of thinking it makes using Subsidies & Diplomats with ‘Charm’ parked in nations you want to trade with worthwhile in the long term.

Any more Thoughts?

All the Best
Peter
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Mus »

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker

Apologies BJ, I do take on board your suggestions re not getting too bogged down with the minutiae, but I’m one of those perverts that do like fiddling with the finer details [>:] . I get a sort of, “Ah, got one!” moment when say an extra Horse or Wine appears after fiddling with the Agriculture slider; at the same time I do realise that it may not actually appear next turn due to other factors.

One of the underlying problems seems to me to be the difference between perceptions of ‘Capacity’ & ‘Production’, now I’m looking at it like this, and I reiterate, I may well be wrong.

Capacity = the Factory, in real life terms what the Mill owner has invested his money & resources into to produce finished goods at a faster rate from the raw materials than (for the CoG period) Home based outsourcing.

Production = the actual goods turned out by the Factory, and that’s where the 25% or 10% becomes a key issue as it represents how well the Factory can increase the yield from the raw materials, 4 Wool or 4 Cotton (so in the 25% or 10% case, the 25% on the 'Tool tip' would be nearer the reality).

If the above is true, then that would make ... So using York as an example with 8 factories, where each factory adds 25% (Tool tip figure, manual says 10% ???) to the production value of the raw materials this would seem to indicate to me that for every 8 Wool sent through York, 2.5 Textile will be produced, and that if this is so, that would help offset the import cost of Spains raw materials. ... a valid deduction, and that’s what I want to know.

The percentage increase isnt in the amount of textiles produced for the amount of wool or cotton processed. The increase is in the amount of textile produced for the amount of labor put into the textile labor slider.

You still need 4 cotton or 4 wool for every 1 textile produced. You can verify that by starting a game as any nation that has the ability to produce more textiles than it has the raw materials in wool/cotton to produce and look at the relationship. Production of textiles = (raw materials stockpiled/4) - feudal level reduction. The raw materials are taken from your stockpile and converted and leftovers are kept in the stockpile until they can be converted.

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker

just remember, that all trade is not really about the deal, it is about getting the trade. Living up to your ‘Hard’ name there HS [:D] , but quite right, if you need/want the raw materials, you pay the Market price...

Well respectfully, using disadvantageous trades as a diplomatic tool to prevent attack by a stronger neighbor or to make up for the lack of a necessity (the food example used) isnt really a factor here, nor is market price determined by the AI trade advisor. No human would trade a finished good requiring 4 raw materials per finished unit for 1 raw material. The fact that the AI trade advisor cant at this time correctly value textiles makes it very dangerous to check export of textiles in PBEM because you would lose your shirt... literally.

[:D]
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Kingmaker »

HiHi

Oh, I see what you're talking about with the 25%. That may be an error. I think the manual is correct. Eric?

Eric, Gil, hope you don't mind but I've 'Nudged' this back to front page, any ideas re the 25% Tool tip v's 10% Manual bit; any other thoughts would be Good if you have the time, Cheers.

All the Best
Peter
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by arras »

What I would be interested in, is to know if 10% bonuses are calculated from base value of province production abbility for given product or they are calculated on top of pervious levels of development.

In oter words: if province produce 10 units without improvement (farm, bank...) one level of improvement adds 10% from 10 = 1 ...province produce 11 units.
Now second level add another 10% ...and question is from what? ...from original 10, adding another 1 unit or from 11 adding 1,1 units?
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by morganbj »

It's based on the base values.  It's does not have a compounding effect.
 
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Mus »

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

It's based on the base values.  It's does not have a compounding effect.

The main point that Kingmaker wants to know from somebody other than me apparently is does it still require 4 cotton or wool in your stockpile for every finished textile produced that turn.

The answer is yes, which is why the trade outlined in the first few posts would be economic suicide. For some reason the economic advisor in game thinks that "market value" for wool/cotton is on a 1 to 1 basis with a finished product requiring 4 wool/cotton per unit.
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by morganbj »

I was answering the question from arras.  I did not speak to the original question.
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Mus »

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

I was answering the question from arras.  I did not speak to the original question.

Nobody did. Thats the reason why it got bumped.
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by arras »

Thanks bjmorgan. And excuse me for infesting someone's else tread with my own question but I felt it to be kind of related.
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RE: Trade Wool Cotton for Textiles

Post by Kingmaker »

HiHi

Arras, I'm fine with you adding stuff to the thread, I'm only too pleased there is someone else out there interested in the Trading aspects, it's seems to be a bit of 'The poor Relation' on the MB.

All the Best
Peter
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