AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Empires in Arms is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. Empires in Arms is a seven player game of grand strategy set during the Napoleonic period of 1805-1815. The unit scale is corps level with full diplomatic options

Moderator: MOD_EIA

User avatar
hellfirejet
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Scotland

AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by hellfirejet »

Hello Marshall,

Is it possible to give the AI variable random setup options for all nations, For 1 France not starting with all fleets in one port and better distrubution of forces in garrissoning ports and cities ? This would make the game more random at setup, with different challenges facing the gamer! Just a thought? [:)]

As it stands the default setup puts all French fleets in Brest,This is totally against historical fact. France never combined its Fleets in one port,this setup plays into the British players hand, which makes it easy for the British player to Blockade them there. The best tactic to employ against Britain at sea is to divied there strenght, making them blockade different ports. Which should not be a problem for France to have ships in Toulon with its increased harbour defence in version 1.06?
Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
easterner
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:43 pm

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by easterner »

I second that motion.  Also it wouldn't hurt if computer could use players saved set-ups too.
User avatar
hellfirejet
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Scotland

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by hellfirejet »

Yes I agree it would be good if the AI could implement players own setup files also, The naval forces of France,Spain & Holland in seperate ports would stretch Britains superior strenght at sea to the limit by blockading them, but the main advantage for the other Nations would be that they could fight Britain on more equal terms in smaller fleet battles as per HISTORY !!!! [:)]

Spread them out? If you spread them, you can put pressure on your enemies number of fleet counters, not just their number of ships - this can be very useful (and even quite a small fleet getting free might be able to cause a "cascade").[:)]
Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
User avatar
pzgndr
Posts: 3189
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:51 am
Location: Maryland

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by pzgndr »

Is it possible to give the AI variable random setup options for all nations, For 1 France not starting with all fleets in one port and better distrubution of forces in garrissoning ports and cities ?

I believe this has already been implemented in v1.05? If not, then it should be in v1.06. Marshall mentioned improved setups not too long ago. I have noticed the AI will respond to player setups. For example, I setup Napoleon with a large force in Lombardy and the Austrian force in Venice was smaller with Charles absent, so no canned setup there.

I do like the idea of having a "library" of setups available for human and AI players to select from. It would be nice to review and edit the possibilities. Then again, I don't object to the game having a few embedded surprises.
Bill Macon
Strategic Command Developer
Empires in Arms Developer
easterner
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:43 pm

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by easterner »

Only once have I seen a clear variation in set-up.  That was with Russia, Alex wasn't in the far east.

Otherwise it is same old.  Britain would benefit from varied starts i.e. Med. strategy. 
iamspamus
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:23 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by iamspamus »

From a GAME point of view, in addition to the French Fleet setup in multiple ports (which involves multiple good-sized garrisons); another way to do it is to setup the whole fleet in (a correctly gunned) Toulon with a full garrison. Obviously, that is not completely historical, but I've seen the Brits cede the med temporarily due to this setup.
ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Yes I agree it would be good if the AI could implement players own setup files also, The naval forces of France,Spain & Holland in seperate ports would stretch Britains superior strenght at sea to the limit by blockading them, but the main advantage for the other Nations would be that they could fight Britain on more equal terms in smaller fleet battles as per HISTORY !!!! [:)]

Spread them out? If you spread them, you can put pressure on your enemies number of fleet counters, not just their number of ships - this can be very useful (and even quite a small fleet getting free might be able to cause a "cascade").[:)]
iamspamus
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:23 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by iamspamus »

Hear, hear. There should be several AI setup choices for each country. I don't know if it could be based upon the setup of the previous country or not. For example, if Russia sets up strong north, then Turkey could set up either strong vs. the North Africans or strong towards Russia or strong toward Austria. (Maybe in that order.)

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
Is it possible to give the AI variable random setup options for all nations, For 1 France not starting with all fleets in one port and better distrubution of forces in garrissoning ports and cities ?

I believe this has already been implemented in v1.05? If not, then it should be in v1.06. Marshall mentioned improved setups not too long ago. I have noticed the AI will respond to player setups. For example, I setup Napoleon with a large force in Lombardy and the Austrian force in Venice was smaller with Charles absent, so no canned setup there.

I do like the idea of having a "library" of setups available for human and AI players to select from. It would be nice to review and edit the possibilities. Then again, I don't object to the game having a few embedded surprises.
User avatar
Marshall Ellis
Posts: 5630
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 3:00 pm
Location: Dallas

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by Marshall Ellis »

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Hello Marshall,

Is it possible to give the AI variable random setup options for all nations, For 1 France not starting with all fleets in one port and better distrubution of forces in garrissoning ports and cities ? This would make the game more random at setup, with different challenges facing the gamer! Just a thought? [:)]

As it stands the default setup puts all French fleets in Brest,This is totally against historical fact. France never combined its Fleets in one port,this setup plays into the British players hand, which makes it easy for the British player to Blockade them there. The best tactic to employ against Britain at sea is to divied there strenght, making them blockade different ports. Which should not be a problem for France to have ships in Toulon with its increased harbour defence in version 1.06?

I do have a tester who has designed several French AI setups. If you have a setup that you think is good then email it to me and we can test it and add it to a distribution. I do not have an easy method of allowing you to add an AI setup YET but I like the idea of allowing you the player to do this.
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


User avatar
hellfirejet
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Scotland

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by hellfirejet »

Hi Ya Marshall,

I normally play as Britain, but after a while it gets like I'm in the GROUNDHOG DAY syndrome, new game but opposition setups are the same, it's like learning to play chess opening moves with slight tactical variants!

If future random AI setups are possible I feel that they would be much more interesting to the gamers.[:)]
Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
User avatar
Marshall Ellis
Posts: 5630
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 3:00 pm
Location: Dallas

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by Marshall Ellis »

HFJ:
 
We currently have setups that are much like opening moves, correct. I can add thousands of setups but I would like them tested first since the best setups tend to come from you guys. The AI, in all truthfulness, just cannot compete with an experienced EiA player who may have some great setups! My engine has only been playing the game for a year while many of you guys have been playing for over 20 years! We've got some ground to gain :-)
 
In this way, I can borrow from your brains and build some best practices.
 
 
 
 
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


User avatar
hellfirejet
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Scotland

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by hellfirejet »

Hi Marshall,

I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, I know its not the done thing but, what if the AI was in control for all initial setups, even for the human players, and like a card game the players played with the hand they were dealt ?

This would mean all placements were simultanous, so no player could place forces having first seen the oppositions strenghts. This is also very challenging for the players as they would have to take command of there Nation from scratch.

It just means you would need to get the AI to select from a list off possibilities 30 ? variations per Nation.[:)]
Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
NeverMan
Posts: 1712
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:52 am

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by NeverMan »

In my opinion, the setups are irrelevant until the AI can actually pull off the strategy that the setup was for, or at least the initial strategy. What's the point otherwise?
User avatar
hellfirejet
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Scotland

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by hellfirejet »

Hi Neverman,

It could be a challenge even for an all Human game, let the AI place all forces random for all Nations, then like a New commander taking charge the player takes over. It is then up to him or her, to sort out the mess and become a true leader. Is that not a bit more challenging of the players ability? Or would you rather do it the easy way and put things where you want them to begin with, thats not reality life don't work like that, the real challenge is for the player to succeed from a position of adversity not from the comfort of there own making.[:)]
Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
AresMars
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:30 pm

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by AresMars »


HFJ,

Gamers like control. Neverman's point is the realistic valid one...

Yours' is more...interesting.....

IMHO, only a GB player versus AI would have any interest in random naval AI placements....

Mind you, I come from the PBEM camp....the AI is when I am really bored...


User avatar
hellfirejet
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Scotland

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by hellfirejet »

Hi Ya AresMars,

I'm not thinking of the Naval side of the game here, I'm just playing with an Idea? Letting players place there forces where they like, is not a starting position in my book thats a comfort zone. How about taking charge from the position of your country needs you so become a leader and make the hard decisions reorginise your forces and defend your capital, ports & cities. Then repel all hostiles?
Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
iamspamus
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:23 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by iamspamus »

NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Breath

NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Ok, maybe as an option...
ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Hi Marshall,

I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, I know its not the done thing but, what if the AI was in control for all initial setups, even for the human players, and like a card game the players played with the hand they were dealt ?

This would mean all placements were simultanous, so no player could place forces having first seen the oppositions strenghts. This is also very challenging for the players as they would have to take command of there Nation from scratch.

It just means you would need to get the AI to select from a list off possibilities 30 ? variations per Nation.[:)]
User avatar
hellfirejet
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Scotland

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by hellfirejet »

Hi Jason,
Why do the players that play this game, want to play from a comfort zone of there own making, ie wait till I'm ready ok! my position is strong now, I feel I'm able to challenge my opponents,[:)] my defences are in place ok your turn attack if you want!
Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
NeverMan
Posts: 1712
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:52 am

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by NeverMan »

Jet,

I was responding to your original post and assumed you were talking about the poor AI setups and were hoping to get an option to let a human manually setup for the AI. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, sorry if I did.
User avatar
hellfirejet
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 pm
Location: Scotland

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by hellfirejet »

Hi Neverman,
What I'm saying is Let the AI place all force for everybody, Now it is not the computers fault that the default setups just now are poor, it can only setup with what it has been programmed with! Marshall says that he has testers looking at better setups. I'm just saying that the AI SHOULD BE ABLE TO SELECT FROM 30 OR 40 BETTER POSSIBLE SETUPS PER NATION? ( Even from us players prefered setups if possible, if not at least from a selection of the best tested setups could be used )

Instead of 1 setup per Nation by default , I would like the computer to be able to select from 40 ? of the best tested setups for France,Britain,Spain,Russia etc.
Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller
iamspamus
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:23 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

RE: AI INITIAL SETUP OPTIONS

Post by iamspamus »

Sometimes the "best setup" can change based on a previous setup by an oppenent.
ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Hi Neverman,
What I'm saying is Let the AI place all force for everybody, Now it is not the computers fault that the default setups just now are poor, it can only setup with what it has been programmed with! Marshall says that he has testers looking at better setups. I'm just saying that the AI SHOULD BE ABLE TO SELECT FROM 30 OR 40 BETTER POSSIBLE SETUPS PER NATION? ( Even from us players prefered setups if possible, if not at least from a selection of the best tested setups could be used )

Instead of 1 setup per Nation by default , I would like the computer to be able to select from 40 ? of the best tested setups for France,Britain,Spain,Russia etc.
Post Reply

Return to “Empires in Arms the Napoleonic Wars of 1805 - 1815”