France not able to attack Russia

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gwheelock
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France not able to attack Russia

Post by gwheelock »

France's main army with Nappy is not able to attack 2 Russian corp in Grodno
but it WAS allowing me to seige the CITY underneith them.

(Note-they did NOT do a successful withdraw)

Here is the save file.

Marshall; please fix - Urgent - game stopper.
Attachments
CleverDevi..k_Russia.zip
(258.7 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
Guy
NeverMan
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by NeverMan »

The 2 Russian Corps are on loan to Austria and Austria is not at war with France. I'm not sure if this is a bug or not because I'm unaware of the rules for this situation.
Grognot
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by Grognot »

The rules should probably ensure that a loaned corps retains its original owner's war status, because otherwise it allows pretty ugly abuses, e.g. loaning corps to a friendly power who's at peace so he can safely maneuver you into a desired position; or if you've just beat down somebody who surrendered, loaning corps to somebody who's still at war with the victim so you can help beat them down even more.

Recall that the loaning of EiANW is essentially a way to implement combined movement, not the forcible loaning as a surrender condition found in the original EiA (in /that/ case, using the DoW status of the borrower would seem more appropriate).
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gwheelock
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by gwheelock »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

The 2 Russian Corps are on loan to Austria and Austria is not at war with France. I'm not sure if this is a bug or not because I'm unaware of the rules for this situation.

If this is the case; it is still a bug that needs to be resolved.
Loaning a corp to a neutral party should NOT protect it from attack.
It is still OWNED by the party at war & the troops are still wearing
the UNIFORM of the ENEMY.

Under this case; someone at war with EITHER the owner or the controller
should be able to attack and to be attacked by this corp.


Also - there needs to be a mechanism for a player to REFUSE to accept
a loan of a corp (because they don't want to take the pp hit for losing
a battle with that corp)

PS: This is mantis bug # 0000388
Guy
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by Marshall Ellis »

This is definitely an issue with how I handle loaned corps.
I have changed this for 1.05 so that if you enter an area with loaned corps (Where the original owner is hostile to you) then the corps reverts to the original owner thus allowing combat. This has also been done for fleets (Only if you attempt an attack).

You could either wait until BETA 1.05 OR I could revert the corps back to Russian control? Your call...

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


NeverMan
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:52 am

RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

This is definitely an issue with how I handle loaned corps.
I have changed this for 1.05 so that if you enter an area with loaned corps (Where the original owner is hostile to you) then the corps reverts to the original owner thus allowing combat. This has also been done for fleets (Only if you attempt an attack).

You could either wait until BETA 1.05 OR I could revert the corps back to Russian control? Your call...


So, like I thought this is the way the rules are implemented, it is NOT a bug just a bad design decision.

NeverMan
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

The 2 Russian Corps are on loan to Austria and Austria is not at war with France. I'm not sure if this is a bug or not because I'm unaware of the rules for this situation.

If this is the case; it is still a bug that needs to be resolved.
Loaning a corp to a neutral party should NOT protect it from attack.
It is still OWNED by the party at war & the troops are still wearing
the UNIFORM of the ENEMY.

Under this case; someone at war with EITHER the owner or the controller
should be able to attack and to be attacked by this corp.


Also - there needs to be a mechanism for a player to REFUSE to accept
a loan of a corp (because they don't want to take the pp hit for losing
a battle with that corp)

PS: This is mantis bug # 0000388

Guy, simply because you do not agree with an EiANW rule does not make it a bug. Trust me, I disagree with A LOT of the rules in EiANW but that doesn't mean they are bugs.

From an earlier thread on these forums this is how I understood this would work, I tried to find that thread but was unsuccessful, sorry.

Anyways, it looks like Marshall has fixed this bad design decision (NOT A BUG!!) in 1.05.
NeverMan
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

This is definitely an issue with how I handle loaned corps.
I have changed this for 1.05 so that if you enter an area with loaned corps (Where the original owner is hostile to you) then the corps reverts to the original owner thus allowing combat. This has also been done for fleets (Only if you attempt an attack).

You could either wait until BETA 1.05 OR I could revert the corps back to Russian control? Your call...


While I do think the "handling of the loaned corps" was a bad design decision and certainly needs to be changed, I'm not sure it's fair to change the rules in the middle of a game.

I would agree if this were a BUG but it's NOT. It's not a bug, it's a bad design decision, which just makes it a bad rules. EiANW are FULL of these, are we to change them all?
bresh
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by bresh »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

This is definitely an issue with how I handle loaned corps.
I have changed this for 1.05 so that if you enter an area with loaned corps (Where the original owner is hostile to you) then the corps reverts to the original owner thus allowing combat. This has also been done for fleets (Only if you attempt an attack).

You could either wait until BETA 1.05 OR I could revert the corps back to Russian control? Your call...


While I do think the "handling of the loaned corps" was a bad design decision and certainly needs to be changed, I'm not sure it's fair to change the rules in the middle of a game.

I would agree if this were a BUG but it's NOT. It's not a bug, it's a bad design decision, which just makes it a bad rules. EiANW are FULL of these, are we to change them all?

When game reacts in a unintended way it is a BUG. And the purpose of lending corps was not to avoid beeing attacked.
So I will think this is a BUG.

About lending and refusing issue, this should not be a problem if the pp-share code works correct,
there is only supposed to be a PP-share if its in a combined force ,and not for single MP-owned/minor forces.


Kind Regards
Bresh
NeverMan
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: bresh
ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

This is definitely an issue with how I handle loaned corps.
I have changed this for 1.05 so that if you enter an area with loaned corps (Where the original owner is hostile to you) then the corps reverts to the original owner thus allowing combat. This has also been done for fleets (Only if you attempt an attack).

You could either wait until BETA 1.05 OR I could revert the corps back to Russian control? Your call...


While I do think the "handling of the loaned corps" was a bad design decision and certainly needs to be changed, I'm not sure it's fair to change the rules in the middle of a game.

I would agree if this were a BUG but it's NOT. It's not a bug, it's a bad design decision, which just makes it a bad rules. EiANW are FULL of these, are we to change them all?

When game reacts in a unintended way it is a BUG. And the purpose of lending corps was not to avoid beeing attacked.
So I will think this is a BUG.

About lending and refusing issue, this should not be a problem if the pp-share code works correct,
there is only supposed to be a PP-share if its in a combined force ,and not for single MP-owned/minor forces.


Kind Regards
Bresh

I understand the clear purpose and I agree that this needs to be changed, it's a very bad design decision; HOWEVER, Marshall clearly stated that this IS the way he is HANDLING LOANDED CORPS, which directly implies that this IS what was intended, hence this is NOT a bug but a bad design decision.
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by Marshall Ellis »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

This is definitely an issue with how I handle loaned corps.
I have changed this for 1.05 so that if you enter an area with loaned corps (Where the original owner is hostile to you) then the corps reverts to the original owner thus allowing combat. This has also been done for fleets (Only if you attempt an attack).

You could either wait until BETA 1.05 OR I could revert the corps back to Russian control? Your call...


So, like I thought this is the way the rules are implemented, it is NOT a bug just a bad design decision.


You can call it whatever you want. Bad design decision will work but it was certainly an oversite on my part to not pay enough attention to the political status of the original owner vs a player in the same area. The loaned corps function has been anything but smooth but a combined move would have been MUCH uglier (trust me).




Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


NeverMan
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:52 am

RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

This is definitely an issue with how I handle loaned corps.
I have changed this for 1.05 so that if you enter an area with loaned corps (Where the original owner is hostile to you) then the corps reverts to the original owner thus allowing combat. This has also been done for fleets (Only if you attempt an attack).

You could either wait until BETA 1.05 OR I could revert the corps back to Russian control? Your call...


So, like I thought this is the way the rules are implemented, it is NOT a bug just a bad design decision.


You can call it whatever you want. Bad design decision will work but it was certainly an oversite on my part to not pay enough attention to the political status of the original owner vs a player in the same area. The loaned corps function has been anything but smooth but a combined move would have been MUCH uglier (trust me).





I agree. I'm just saying that I think it's important to note it what it is. If this is the way you intended it to be, whether by oversite or not, then it's not a bug by definition.

I agree that this needs to be changed and it should be an easy fix.
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by Marshall Ellis »

This actually is fixed in 1.05. There were several issue numbers related to this.
 
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


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Jimmer
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by Jimmer »

See my post in the After Action forum. Bottom line: This is a bug, by definition. See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bug:
 
Informal. a defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan; glitch: The test flight discovered the bugs in the new plane.
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by Marshall Ellis »

I think "bug" works LOL!
Thanks Jimmer!
 
 
 
 
 
 
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


NeverMan
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by NeverMan »

Well, again, by your logic, since this whole game is an imperfection, then the game is a bug.

Now if you want to stop arguing semantics and point me to a rule I would gladly follow.
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Jimmer
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by Jimmer »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I think "bug" works LOL!
Thanks Jimmer!
[:)] [:D]

Well, it worked for those first programmers.

Splat! [:)]
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Jimmer
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by Jimmer »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Well, again, by your logic, since this whole game is an imperfection, then the game is a bug.

Now if you want to stop arguing semantics and point me to a rule I would gladly follow.
See the other thread (actually, I think maybe it belongs here instead).

It's a negative inference. The corps is at war. The corps is then loaned. Some very specific items occur that change the various elements of status for that corps, and these are specified in the manual. For example, only the nation the corps is loaned to can supply it.

Since no longer being at war with the other power is not listed, it doesn't happen.

Here's the rule, for reference:
6.9 Loaning Corps
Allies may declare that one or more of their corps will be “loaned” for the remainder of the month, with movement and supply costs of all loaned forces being handled by the ally borrowing them. This enables allies to move and attack together against a common enemy.

To use a reductio ad absurdum argument:

Premise: If my negative inference above were false, then that would mean that the corps truly is not at war right now.

But, the rule also doesn't say that the factors inside the corps become guard factors when loaned. If my negative inference is false, then the game could change the factors to guard factors while loaned. Everybody would agree that such a change would not be valid. But, since the same logic allows both, that means that the first premise is also invalid.

Reductio ad absurdum shows a contradiction with the premise as stated. Therefore, the corps must remain at war, even though loaned (unless the rules are changed to allow it -- something I don't believe anybody wants).
At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?
NeverMan
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by NeverMan »

I read the other thread and commented there also.

I'm not sure that the use of reductio ad absurdem is used correctly here, you may want to double check your usage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

"When reductio ad absurdum is in error, it is because of a fallacy in the reasoning used to arrive at the contradiction, not the act of reduction itself."

Anyways, unfortunately for all of us Matrix has seemingly left many details out of the rulebook and therefore left many things up to interpretation, which is just bad.

gwheelock
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RE: France not able to attack Russia

Post by gwheelock »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

This is definitely an issue with how I handle loaned corps.
I have changed this for 1.05 so that if you enter an area with loaned corps (Where the original owner is hostile to you) then the corps reverts to the original owner thus allowing combat. This has also been done for fleets (Only if you attempt an attack).

You could either wait until BETA 1.05 OR I could revert the corps back to Russian control? Your call...



If you could revert the corp (thats what 1.05 would do anyway) - I would much appreciate it.
That way we could get on with the game.

Thanks
Guy
Guy
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