Mission types for Ships

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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pad152
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Mission types for Ships

Post by pad152 »

Any changes in the mission types for ships in AE?

In WITP I never saw a difference between PT and Surface missions, PT boats set to either with a range setting would try to attack during daylight(not a good idea), one would think PT's set to PT mission would only attack during night time phase.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Shark7 »

Or that PTs would actually use their torpedos when attacking?

I have seen PTs fail to fire their main weapon, the torpedo, yet close to slingshot range to shoot at cruisers with .50 calibre brownings far too often. The PT of course sinks without even firing its torpedoes, completely negating the players reason for using them.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

PTs in the game are best suited for what they were best suited for in the war: intercepting barges. Send PTs in against surface ships and you are going to get them chewed up (I wonder why?).

If you are waiting for PTs in the Pacific, wait a little longer.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by pad152 »

You want to explain the difference between the PT mission and a Surface mission?

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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

PTs were not built to go toe to toe with the Yamato. Yet some people seem to think that they should have the ability to do that. Surface combat missions ARE made for that. PTs are for interdicting unescorted light troop movements. They excelled at it in the war, they excell at it in WitP, and they excell at it in AE. If you are expecting a PT group to lay waste to 5 Kagero class DDs in a head to head fight, you WILL be disappointed.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

PTs were not built to go toe to toe with the Yamato. Yet some people seem to think that they should have the ability to do that. Surface combat missions ARE made for that. PTs are for interdicting unescorted light troop movements. They excelled at it in the war, they excell at it in WitP, and they excell at it in AE. If you are expecting a PT group to lay waste to 5 Kagero class DDs in a head to head fight, you WILL be disappointed.

I think you misunderstand what I was pointing out.

I have no expectations of a PT boat doing anything other than being a target drone when up against capital ships. However, when forced into such a fight, they should at least launch their torpedoes, instead of moving in to knife-fighting range like they currently do. 'Shoot and scoot', not crawl and brawl.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

Well, there are limitations. Yes, it would be wonderful if everything worked the way everyone thinks it should work. However, reality has a way of putting water on it. WitP has 1 part time programmer (and actually he has been taken off it to work on AE so WitP has zero support atm). There are limits to the code.

But lets say they do change it so PTs launch their fish at 20,000 yards. What are they going to hit? 10,000 yards? OK, 10,000 - again, what are they going to hit? 5.000? Lets face it, PTs arent going to hit anything ourside 1000 yards, the PT skippers know it. Why throw away good torps when as you say they have a chance to crawl into knife fight range and score a hit? Just because they get into close enough range doesnt mean they have a target for those fish either.

A PT caught by a surface group has 3 choices: 1) run away 2) try to get into range to do some damage 3) die.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Iridium »

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
A PT caught by a surface group has 3 choices: 1) run away 2) try to get into range to do some damage 3) die.

+1

I tend to think that PT boats would have a difficult time avoiding 5"+ shells from whatever ship(s) they might be closing on. Especially if in a relatively poor sea state.

1 DD vs a PT

5-8; 5" guns for a single PT to avoid while attempting to get within decent range for it's torpedos. I'd hate to think of multiple ships, not to mention the possibility of capital ships.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by erstad »

ORIGINAL: pad152

Any changes in the mission types for ships in AE?

In WITP I never saw a difference between PT and Surface missions, PT boats set to either with a range setting would try to attack during daylight(not a good idea), one would think PT's set to PT mission would only attack during night time phase.

Per section 6.1.11 of the manual, "Roles only exist to allow the computer to better refine its ship selection when creating a TF. A PT boat task force is always a role [sic] of a Surface Combat TF."
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by pad152 »

Yamato this is the AE forum, I'm asking about things (some questionable things in WITP) and asking how they are addressed in AE. AE is the future and I really don't expect things to be fixed or changed in witp going forward but, addressed or looked at in AE.

I'm pointing out there is no difference between a PT mission and a surface mission (in the game). Is this the way is should work or is it broken?


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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

ORIGINAL: erstad

Per section 6.1.11 of the manual

I stopped reading right here. Dont assume the manual is correct.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

ORIGINAL: pad152

Yamato this is the AE forum, I'm asking about things (some questionable things in WITP) and asking how they are addressed in AE. AE is the future and I really don't expect things to be fixed or changed in witp going forward but, addressed or looked at in AE.

I'm pointing out there is no difference between a PT mission and a surface mission (in the game). Is this the way is should work or is it broken?

In AE, PTs (or MGBs et al) can not be put into a surface combat TFs. They have their own TF mission (called PT) that only PT types can be placed in.

Edit: ship limit 6 boats.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

ORIGINAL: Iridium

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
A PT caught by a surface group has 3 choices: 1) run away 2) try to get into range to do some damage 3) die.

+1

I tend to think that PT boats would have a difficult time avoiding 5"+ shells from whatever ship(s) they might be closing on. Especially if in a relatively poor sea state.

1 DD vs a PT

5-8; 5" guns for a single PT to avoid while attempting to get within decent range for it's torpedos. I'd hate to think of multiple ships, not to mention the possibility of capital ships.

DDs (destroyers) are a shortened form of their original name, which was Torpedo Boat Destroyers. DDs should have an advantage against PTs since their original function was to destroy them.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Monter_Trismegistos »

Actually destroyers were created to destroy torpedoboats (TB), not motor torpedo boats (PT), the latter being few times smaller and 1,5 times faster.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by spence »

5-8; 5" guns for a single PT to avoid while attempting to get within decent range for it's torpedos. I'd hate to think of multiple ships, not to mention the possibility of capital ships.

Just look how well the DD's did in the Gulf of Tonkin with Mk 54 5 inchers and a modern (for the time) fire control system (1964). What'd they sink? 10, 20 PTs?[8|]

In the game as well as IRL the PTs should fire their torpedoes which will mostly miss and the DD's should fire their guns which will mostly miss. The RL story is that although PTs didn't sink many DDs or other major warships the converse is also true: Japanese DDs and other major warships didn't sink many PTs either. The times Japanese fleet(s) of major warships engaged PTs, Naval Battle of Guadalacanal and Surigao Strait (3 seperate fleets of multiple "heavy ships" and DDs); IIRC the total number of PTs sunk was 1 and the toll paid to the (lots of) PTs was a single torpedo hit on Abukuma (which wasn't even the target).
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

ORIGINAL: spence

The RL story is that although PTs didn't sink many DDs or other major warships the converse is also true: Japanese DDs and other major warships didn't sink many PTs either. The times Japanese fleet(s) of major warships engaged PTs, Naval Battle of Guadalacanal and Surigao Strait (3 seperate fleets of multiple "heavy ships" and DDs); IIRC the total number of PTs sunk was 1 and the toll paid to the (lots of) PTs was a single torpedo hit on Abukuma (which wasn't even the target).

Exactly my point though. You dont send PTs in against combat ships. If you do, dont expect to win.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: spence
5-8; 5" guns for a single PT to avoid while attempting to get within decent range for it's torpedos. I'd hate to think of multiple ships, not to mention the possibility of capital ships.

Just look how well the DD's did in the Gulf of Tonkin with Mk 54 5 inchers and a modern (for the time) fire control system (1964). What'd they sink? 10, 20 PTs?[8|]

In the game as well as IRL the PTs should fire their torpedoes which will mostly miss and the DD's should fire their guns which will mostly miss. The RL story is that although PTs didn't sink many DDs or other major warships the converse is also true: Japanese DDs and other major warships didn't sink many PTs either. The times Japanese fleet(s) of major warships engaged PTs, Naval Battle of Guadalacanal and Surigao Strait (3 seperate fleets of multiple "heavy ships" and DDs); IIRC the total number of PTs sunk was 1 and the toll paid to the (lots of) PTs was a single torpedo hit on Abukuma (which wasn't even the target).

Which is kinda what I am drivimg at Spence. PTs should either fire their torpedoes at range and retire (getting lots of misses and not taking much in the way of return fire), or simply run outright rather than trying to engage a SAG at close range.

Now then, in my current game, schwartzkie has used his PTs very well against my transport TFs, and with good effect. The small PCs, PGs, and MSWs I'm forced to use as escorts for my cargo ships can't rip them to shreds and he has claimed several vessels.

What needs to change is how the PT TF reacts when it runs into a heavy SAG. They really should try to disengage or fire off their torpedoes at long range and disengage rather than going in to extremely close range. But that is just my opinion.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

But then you are talking about WitP also, not AE.

But in speaking of WitP, try putting less aggressive commanders on your PTs and they will "shoot and scoot". Just like sub skippers, the more aggressive they are the more they will press home their attacks. And aggressive commanders in the wrong place at the wrong time isnt a good thing.
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Dili »

Exactly my point though. You dont send PTs in against combat ships. If you do, dont expect to win.

Why? they got some success in Mediterranean/Black Sea, some escorts were sunk, and even a cruiser HMS Manchester sunk while others were hit. This might due to doutrine and tradition(after all was Italian Navy that put PT's on the map).
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RE: Mission types for Ships

Post by Yamato hugger »

ORIGINAL: Dili
Exactly my point though. You dont send PTs in against combat ships. If you do, dont expect to win.

Why? they got some success in Mediterranean/Black Sea, some escorts were sunk, and even a cruiser HMS Manchester sunk while others were hit. This might due to doutrine and tradition(after all was Italian Navy that put PT's on the map).

And their losses were?
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