Realism

From the creators of Crown of Glory come an epic tale of North Vs. South. By combining area movement on the grand scale with optional hex based tactical battles when they occur, Forge of Freedom provides something for every strategy gamer. Control economic development, political development with governers and foreign nations, and use your military to win the bloodiest war in US history.

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JeanUSARMYGUARD
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Realism

Post by JeanUSARMYGUARD »

One problem I need to post.

The game is excellent, however I noticied during Tactical combat the Confederacy has a strong advantage at Normal or Easy level. One example is during a battle I was conducting in Fredricksburg... My forces outnumbered the Confederates almost 2 to 1. I was able to flank their position. I surrounded entire groups of brigades and single brigades. The problem I have is that I lost the battle when I should of won it. I surrounded nearly every Confederate Brigade with at least 3 - 4 brigades ... firing on them from all sides... and yet the amount of damage was minimal. I fired and charged with Fresh Brigades from even behind the Enemy brigade and yet lost 134 to their 2. Throwing volley after volley from behind, front, sides.... and half the time I suffered more losses. Reguardless of any units strength, morale, etc... if they are firing at the enemy from the rear... and take heavy losses... with the enemy brigade bearly getting hurt... a fix is needed.

When one of my brigades is surrounded and hit from all sides... they last maybe a turn or two... a enemy brigade and brigades lasted the onslaught of my forces for 10 - 20 turns.

Has anyone experienced a problem like this?
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Joram
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RE: Realism

Post by Joram »

Not only do Confederates start with a higher morale in general, I believe they (well, both sides really) get a morale bonus for fighting on home territory.   You should expect to lose a few early battles until the morale of your troops improves.  Even so, you'll probably always fight with a morale disadvantage as the north so you just need to rely on numbers and eventually superior weapons.
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Gil R.
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RE: Realism

Post by Gil R. »

Using the "Attack Report" option is a good way of learning about what's happening in detailed battle, and can help you learn what you're doing right or wrong.
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terje439
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RE: Realism

Post by terje439 »

ORIGINAL: JeanUSARMYGUARD

One problem I need to post.

The game is excellent, however I noticied during Tactical combat the Confederacy has a strong advantage at Normal or Easy level. One example is during a battle I was conducting in Fredricksburg... My forces outnumbered the Confederates almost 2 to 1. I was able to flank their position. I surrounded entire groups of brigades and single brigades. The problem I have is that I lost the battle when I should of won it. I surrounded nearly every Confederate Brigade with at least 3 - 4 brigades ... firing on them from all sides... and yet the amount of damage was minimal. I fired and charged with Fresh Brigades from even behind the Enemy brigade and yet lost 134 to their 2. Throwing volley after volley from behind, front, sides.... and half the time I suffered more losses. Reguardless of any units strength, morale, etc... if they are firing at the enemy from the rear... and take heavy losses... with the enemy brigade bearly getting hurt... a fix is needed.

When one of my brigades is surrounded and hit from all sides... they last maybe a turn or two... a enemy brigade and brigades lasted the onslaught of my forces for 10 - 20 turns.

Has anyone experienced a problem like this?

I've never seen it that bad, I can have one of my better experienced brigades led by a decent general from a decent div in a decent corps in a decent army last some 10 turns with attacks from TWO units, but that would be max. However altering the morale of the South is no good imo, as the Union has advantage in numbers and economy, the Souths only advantage lies in morale and generals early on.
But again, what difficulty level? Higher difficulty means lower morale losses to the enemy, on full general I will only capture 1/5 brigades, the last 4 will fight to death.
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moose1999
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RE: Realism

Post by moose1999 »

The game is designed so it's near impossible for the North the launch a successfull invasion of the South the first year.
Although I'm sure the experienced players do it all the time... [;)]
I, personally, like the big advantage the South has in the beginning in quality and morale.

Charging is dangerous business. I very rarely charge enemy units in formation with infantry, as it's a big gamble.
I know other players feel more comfortable doing it, though, so it is a valid tactic. Just be careful.

Your uneven results from fire-combat can have many explanations. The combat mechanics are wonderfully detailed.
As Gil said, turn on attack reports in the settings menu (accessed from the detailed battle map) to see whats going on.
And make sure, of course, that you have the latest patch.

And have fun!

regards,

Briny
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RE: Realism

Post by JeanUSARMYGUARD »

A few other problems Im encountering

- The Rebels seem to always have massive amounts of troops. As of mid 1862 I have less forces than they do. I have camps in many cities however none of my armies ever increase in size.

- Theres too many brigades that misinterpret movement commands.

- There are times when I place my cursor over a enemy or friendly brigade to either attack, resupply, etc. and click... nothing happens... I have to wait a bit, move the cursor throughout the screen then click

- My brigades always seem to be Out of Supply ... I have them usually at Normal Supply, or Low Supply
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JeanUSARMYGUARD
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RE: Realism

Post by JeanUSARMYGUARD »

Another problem that affects gameplay ... is that when in Tactical combat... you are unable to move the screen North, South, East, West ... you must wait a few seconds... then try again, and again... and then it finally moves the screen ... however it is very sluggish.

* My PC is very well up to date with a good graphics cards and Ram. I can play PC titles with no problem or bad frame rate.

Also how is the South able to recover troops so fast. I defeated the Army of N. VA with 15,000 losses to them and 10,000 to mine. I had 5 turns or so before they returned... with more than they had before. Where are they getting these troops.

I believe the developers overestimated the Souths AI / Resources / strength.

Its unrealistic when you have a brigade in the field that cannot dig in... which has been done since the Revolutionary War. Also The South had old and primitive weapons throughout the war... how is it in this title... Their Brigades can outshoot mine, when mine have Springfield rifles. Another thing is and a major point is

The South always had trouble putting half or 3/4 of the men into the field than the Union. How is it in this title ... I am constantly facing nearly double confederate forces. I build camps and telegraphs constantly.

A patch is needed
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morganbj
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RE: Realism

Post by morganbj »

When I first got the game, and played the South, I had the same feeling.  After five or six very bad losses, I started figuring out how it worked.  You'll get to the point where you'll see how all the pieces fit together, AND what's important and not important.
 
For sure, stay out of Fredericksburg early in the game.  It's almost always a victory for the South until much later in the game.  Your best options are the Mississippi, Kentucky, West Virginia.  The latter is more of a diversion, I've found.
 
Play the South a few times and see how the Union can crive you crazy.  Once I played both sides a few times, I learned what their respective vulnerabilities are.
 
Give it a little more time.  It's really not bad at all.
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Ironclad
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RE: Realism

Post by Ironclad »

It sounds like you might be playing one of the more generous scenarios for the South. If you haven't done so already try Southern Steel or the non-balanced version of Coming Fury which have far more realistic troop levels and resources/population for each side. Lesser resources for the South in these also impact on their scope to build camps as quickly so reduce their speed of replacements. You do need to keep up regular camp building as well to ensure you maintain a lead in replacements - here the invalid camps upgrade is a real bonus but not if he gets it first.

I think the game has got it about right in terms of digging in on the battlefield as this wasn't common in the early part of the war. So in the game a very occasional initial unit will have the diggers special ability but widespread practice for your side will await the first hasty entrenchments upgrade. With The Union's greater resources you should be able to spend a lot more on research buildings (choosing University's sites where possible to get the extra research point) to improve the arrival time of needed upgrades.

Your slow screen speed is surprising - are you playing with the latest patches?
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RE: Realism

Post by ericbabe »

Can you post a screenshot of an attack report showing how CSA brigades are out-shooting your USA brigades despite that you have better weapons, or when you are attacking from the rear?  There are a number of factors that determine the results of each attack.  If you post the screenshot of the attack report, we can see which factors are coming into play.

We have spent an enormous amount of time adjusting the combat numbers and testing their results based on enormous feedback from dozens of people with decades of wargaming experience, so my sense is that our combat numbers probably aren't really as bad as you are claiming they are.

As for the CSA producing many units, that's possible depending on which scenario you choose and which game setup options and difficulty level one picks -- there are many options for starting the game.  However, with the options I choose, I don't really see this at all.

We originally allowed units to dig in more freely, but many many people thought it was not doctrinally historical to allow this, and so, based on overwhelming feedback, we changed the digging in rules.


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RE: Realism

Post by ericbabe »

On my up-to-date gaming machine (quad core 2.66 GHz, 4GB) FOF runs very fast and smoothly.  On some of the older basement computers it does run a little slower, but when I turn off some of the graphical options in detailed battle (shadows is a big one), then it runs well on those machines too.
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Gil R.
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RE: Realism

Post by Gil R. »

JeanUSARMYGUARD,

As the others wrote, what you are experiencing with the large southern armies is a typical experience for many new players who are playing on levels and settings that make the CSA AI tougher to beat, are playing a "balanced" scenario, and/or are not employing the right strategies. If you read back in the forum you'll find a lot of discussion about this, and the threads in "The War Room" also have numerous tips for the northern player.

Regarding your claim that "I believe the developers overestimated the Souths AI / Resources / strength," I should point out that all of our economic data in the game -- for both the "balanced" (i.e., imbalanced, but not sharply imbalanced) and "imbalanced" economic scenarios -- come from census data and other historical sources. Settings can be changed to give the South more men and resources than it had, but our basic data are completely sound.

Another matter. You wrote: "Its unrealistic when you have a brigade in the field that cannot dig in... which has been done since the Revolutionary War." You don't say when in the game this is happening (or not happening), but my guess is that it is early in the game. To elaborate on what Eric wrote, at the beginning of the Civil War the troops DID NOT make use of field fortifications. It wasn't until the Peninsular Campaign that they did so, and they had to learn it, and not for many more months (or a year?) before the soldiers were so good that as soon as they came to a new defensive location they would start digging in without even the need for officers to oversee their activities. We reflect this by making the ability to dig in something that must be learned by most units, and believe that it would have been a very poor game design decision to have the ability to entrench there from the start. (Since you're working on your own Civil War computer game, you might want to look at the definitive study: Earl J. Hess, Field Armies and Fortifications in the Civil War: The Eastern Campaigns, 1861-1864. I read the whole book in doing research for FOF, and think so highly of it that we provide an Amazon link on our WCS homepage. Hess's next book, on field fortifications in the Overland Campaign, just came out, and I'm looking forward to reading it.)
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RE: Realism

Post by JeanUSARMYGUARD »

First I would like to thank you ... for taking the time and responding to my post.

The focus of my grievance is toward the extreme disadvantages to The Union. I have read and understand the strategies needed to win the war as The Union, however I feel they may be too much.

I have played 3 levels of difficulty - Normal, Easy, Very Easy and all provide a great deal of difficulty to The Union that limits the funfactor extremely.

Amoung the issues

1. Nearly every brigade in detailed combat... whether small or large army... misinterprets commands constantly... nearly to the point that makes devising strategies very difficult.

2. One ocassion I invaded Fredricksburg with 100,000 men against 30,000 Confederates. These men were nearly all armed with Springfield rifles ... had top leaders... and had great disposition. However all this wasnt enough. Numerous brigades broke and the battle was lost, even though I had circled the Confederate army, inflicted massive losses and had Confederate brigades routing.

3. Other occassions I charged Confederate brigades from behind... and lost over 100 men to 8 of the enemy

4. Even in Very Easy mode... I struggle to fill brigades, and form units. Such shouldnt be as early or late in the war The Union had no trouble filling in the ranks of Brigades. The Union had always stronger numbers than the Confederates.

Dont get me wrong this is a great title. One of the best I have ever played. It has a great design and is very innovative. You can tell alot of development went into Forge of Freedom... I believe it is one of a very few titles that is worth the price. The great replayability and addictive gameplay will make this title ... A worthy addition to any collection.

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terje439
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RE: Realism

Post by terje439 »

ORIGINAL: JeanUSARMYGUARD

First I would like to thank you ... for taking the time and responding to my post.

The focus of my grievance is toward the extreme disadvantages to The Union. I have read and understand the strategies needed to win the war as The Union, however I feel they may be too much.

I have played 3 levels of difficulty - Normal, Easy, Very Easy and all provide a great deal of difficulty to The Union that limits the funfactor extremely.

Amoung the issues

1. Nearly every brigade in detailed combat... whether small or large army... misinterprets commands constantly... nearly to the point that makes devising strategies very difficult.

2. One ocassion I invaded Fredricksburg with 100,000 men against 30,000 Confederates. These men were nearly all armed with Springfield rifles ... had top leaders... and had great disposition. However all this wasnt enough. Numerous brigades broke and the battle was lost, even though I had circled the Confederate army, inflicted massive losses and had Confederate brigades routing.

3. Other occassions I charged Confederate brigades from behind... and lost over 100 men to 8 of the enemy

4. Even in Very Easy mode... I struggle to fill brigades, and form units. Such shouldnt be as early or late in the war The Union had no trouble filling in the ranks of Brigades. The Union had always stronger numbers than the Confederates.

Dont get me wrong this is a great title. One of the best I have ever played. It has a great design and is very innovative. You can tell alot of development went into Forge of Freedom... I believe it is one of a very few titles that is worth the price. The great replayability and addictive gameplay will make this title ... A worthy addition to any collection.


Taking a wild guess here;
1. Your containers are not very well trained (DIV/CORP/ARMY).
2. Sounds like your brigades had low morale
3. Well...charge...I avoid it, I've never figured it out tbh so cannot say anything about this.
4. How come you struggle to form units and fill brigades? Have you built camps? Are you having difficulty forming units due to no manpower? If so, do not build camps in the cities you want to produce your units (atleast on some settings).

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Randomizer
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RE: Realism

Post by Randomizer »

While I have not had a number of the issues related by JeanUSARMYGUARD, I have too noted some things that might point to a distinct Confederate bias. Playing Advanced Rules, no advantages to either side and First Sgt difficulty, I have managed to win a majority of DC's so far but sometimes...

Early September 1862, yesterday the 122nd Confederate Bde marched in column into the guns of two well trained Union bde's, both with morale of better than 6 and 2500+ troops each. The Blanket Bde is armed with Springfield's and the 1 MD Volunteers (renamed) with muskets. First volley cost the Blanket Bde 33 casualties to nil, the second volley from the MD Volunteers (at 300%) inflicted 9 casualties at a cost of 19. My troops were entrenched on a hill and were not fatigued. I have found that this sort of thing happens a bit too often.

On the otherhand during the Confederate turn the AI charged my position uphill at a cost of 441 casualties to 6 for me, knocking the 122 Bde out of the battle for good.

The other thing is the infinite capacity of the Confederates for replacements. During the Late August turn I essentially wiped out the Confederate Irish Bde in battle but here it is back again in the Early September turn with a strength of over 3000. Being as how I'm currently over 100,000 men short despite camps producing 10,000+ men per turn, this is a bit hard to swallow.

This thread has twigged me to look for unusual behavior in DC and I've noted enough to think a pro-Confederate bias that might go beyond early war morale and leadership is at least possible.

I do love this game however, and am only just starting to appreciate the depth and subtleties of the FoF engine but find it frustrating when things like this happen. It would be nice to know what (if any) material advantages have been built into the AI for balance or whatever.

I have no issues with the command and control however, with 19th Century communications being what they were and all. Although the random walks of Bdes are sometimes a bit too random, the overall effect is valid (IMO) even if the actual mechanism is a bit ugly.

<Edit>
Agree that charging is almost always a bad idea, firepower is where it's at, lots of lovely firepower. This is legit IMO since most assaults degenerated into close-range firefights until somebody gave way. I think FoF reflects this pretty well overall.
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Hard Sarge
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RE: Realism

Post by Hard Sarge »

it is not a CSA bias, it is a AI bias

play as the CSA and you will see some of the same thing with the Union

the AI gets little perks

early in the War the side on the defence gets a major morale bump, in a few battles it is easy for the same defending forces to have battle morale in the 8's or higher

play and plan the game for the long haul, if you find some of my AARs with the Union, I had some pretty well trained troops marching around


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Joram
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RE: Realism

Post by Joram »

Exactly.&nbsp; In fact, I have won as the North using instant combat.&nbsp; There is no real southern bias.
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RE: Realism

Post by Hard Sarge »

oh, yes, winning as the North can be easy, I have won two games as the North that other players said couldn't be done with the games they had running

also had a lot of fun with one of Gil's southern games (now he really put my back up against a wall !)

I think a lot of times, the Northern Player just tries to do too much too soon

just work with it, learn the tactics, learn the tactics that work for you ! and then use them
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Randomizer
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RE: Realism

Post by Randomizer »

I think the point that is being ignored here is that there have been combat anomally's identified but not really explained. Instantly resurrected brigades and large amounts of ineffective firepower from competant units have been noted but no explanations are offered. If the ineffective fire is just a bad dice roll, fine. If the AI gets an undocumented replacement bonus for play balance so be it, but explaining that might help. If this is documented elsewhere in the Forum, I never found it despite looking before posting here.

Since this thread opened I have noted quite a number of incidents where the AI has gotten too good a call, perhaps because now I'm looking for them and using the attack reports screen and while I have no issues if it's just the luck of the draw, few of the comments above have addressed them. I will admit that I may be seeing something that isn't really there now that I've placed DC's under a microscope, as it were. Hard Sarge alludes to AI perks so some details might be nice.

I never wrote that I think there IS bias, only that I have noted evidence of what APPEARS to be Advantage; AI but concede that I have not yet played the South. To quote Lincoln, "One War at a time".

As for "attempting too much", hardly the case here. 13-months in have been too busy fending off multiple successive Confederate invasions using their seemingly limitless manpower pool. I am out killing the Rebels significantly but the South seems to be somehow winning a war of attrition. That is frustrating without understanding how that can happen, I would rather fight the programmed AI than the game system itself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm thoroughly enjoying FoF, it's an excellent historical game and in DC I'm winning more often than losing but it doesn't seem to make any difference so far. Strategically, no significant issues noted but tactically I would rather know what, if any, unique benefits that the AI gets for whatever reasons.

New question though, will a Southern AI select Emancipation? If so, any intelligence as to what the triggers might be?
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RE: Realism

Post by Joram »

To be perfectly frank, I don't know if on normal level if the AI gets bonuses or not.&nbsp; I think they do, but not sure.
&nbsp;
I have seen the southern AI pick emancipation but do not know the specific triggers involved.
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