Armoured skirts question

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soldier
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Armoured skirts question

Post by soldier »

I've always thought that armoured skirts were those big side plates you can see very clearly attached to the hull armour (or sometimes to the turrets) of German tanks like the Pz IV J & H or the Stug G & IV but many other tanks like the various T 34 models and shermans also have them in the game. Did these tanks have some kind of skirts attached in real life and if so where are they ? I can't see anything on the pictures that look like them
Poopyhead
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by Poopyhead »


T-34
http://www.smallsoldiers.ru/english/conveskirts2.htm

Canadian soldiers welded extra tracks to the sides of their Shermans.
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawi ... erman_Tank
Astrologers believe that your future is determined on the day that you are born.
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Alby
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by Alby »

The Skirt numbers can identify to the game code if the Tank has a certain type of armor.
Doesnt always mean it has "skirt"
Correct me if I am wrong Flash, or as usual, say it better than I do...
[:D]

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FlashfyreSP
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by FlashfyreSP »

Here´s what PaulV stated on the skirt values in the forum long ago:



The Rating applies to the whole tank and only those tanks that were predominantly face hardened armor were given the rating. For early german models only the front (excluding the glacis plate) or even smaller portions of the front were face hardened.

40 is generally face hardened
50 is high hardness or flawed
60 is high hardness and flaws
70 is cast

CL will allow us to specify the armor type on a plate by plate basis, so only the proper portion is given the benefit. In SP:WaW compromise had to be made beasue ALL faces are treated the same.

The effects are adapted from the high hardness modifier equation in "WW2 Ballistics", as are cast modifiers. Face hardened modifiers are based on relationships gleaned from a number of sources and an equation of a form similar to The WW2 ballistics high hardness equation is used.

I don't have it handy, but with "alt-L" combat text logging you can see the modifers.

The functions use thickness of the armor, and T/d ratio to come up with a modifier. The lower the armor thicknes and the higher the T/d the lower the modifier is.

in general teh modifiers will range:

1.3 - .9 for 40
1.15 - .8 for 50
1.05 - .7 for 60
.95 - .6 for 70

That is off the top of my head for the general range of "most favorable" (high thickness, high t/d) and "least favorable" (low thickness, low t/d) type conditions +/- .1 or so...

Note: RockinHarry. I´ve seen different modifier figures in the combat.txt file as PaulV stated above!

______________________________________

from the game manual:

Armored Skirts:

Armored skirts are now handled differently. They add to the base armor after slope has been calculated. The amount they add ranges from 100 percent to 300 percent of the skirt thickness, depending on the type of ammunition striking it. In addition, although the display screen for engineering tanks displays only their inherent armor, the effects of the rollers, blades and other external accessories are factored into the penetration model.

• Armor - The armor thickness and slope for FH (Front Hull), SH (Side Hull), RH (Rear Hull), and similarly for turret front, side and rear and a generic top of vehicle. After all calculations or armor thickness, then a random number from 1 to 3 times skirt value is added. Slope is from the vertical so zero is a vertical flat plate.

Note: RockinHarry: +1 skirt point equals 5mm of extra armor, +2 skirt points add 10mm of extra armor, ect
______________________________________

Example: german PzIVH skirt=41.

"40" for tank having mostly "face hardened" armor (modifier range 1.3 -0.9).
"+1" for adding a generic skirt of about 5mm extra armor.
______________________________________

german Hetzer skirt=61.

"60" for tank having mostly "high hardness AND flaws" armor (modifier range 1.05 - 0.7).
"+1" for adding a generic skirt of about 5mm extra armor.
______________________________________

As far as I can tell from viewing the "combat.txt" file (ALT-L), the skirt has almost negible effect on AP and APCR (HVAP) rounds, while it is mostly impenetrable to HEAT. I think I´ve seen at least one occasion when skirts do not affect HEAT. Might be a location was hit, not covered by skirts, which would be realistic (vulnerable location hit maybe?) Can´t tell what HE really does, as there´s apparently less data written into the combat.txt file as for AP/APCR and HEAT ammo. From my observations, skirts seem not to have influence on HE penetration, but I can´t tell for sure.

some typical stuff logged into combat.txt file:

T-34 m.43 firing at PzKpfw-IVh at a range of 300 yds, ~using 76.2mm F-34~Hit Chance 94 percent
skirt val = 5
diam = 75.00
base_arm_div_diam = 0.44
good quality armor mod = 0.81
adjusted arm value = 806
~PzKpfw-IVh is hit, SIDE HULL hit by 76.2mm F-34, using HEAT ammo, ~Pen 144, Armor 806, No Effect


T-34 m.43 firing at PzKpfw-IVh at a range of 300 yds, ~using 76.2mm F-34~Hit Chance 94 percent
AP shell hit
pen = 181, base = 90
PRM = 1.01, HorAspect = -2.00, VerAspect = -2.00, BPF = 1.39
Temp1 = 1.00, Temp2 = 1.00, Temp3 = 0.05, Temp4 = 1.00
GeoArm = 33.04, BalArm = 31.95
skirt val = 5
diam = 75.00
base_arm_div_diam = 0.44
good quality armor mod = 0.81
adjusted arm value = 29
~PzKpfw-IVh is hit, SIDE HULL hit by 76.2mm F-34, using AP ammo, ~Pen 91, Armor 29, PzKpfw-IVh DESTROYED


T-34 m.43 firing at PzKpfw-IVh at a range of 300 yds, ~using 76.2mm F-34~Hit Chance 70 percent
HVAP shell hit
pen = 238, base = 119
PRM = 0.91, HorAspect = -1.00, VerAspect = 0.00
Temp1 = 1.00, Temp2 = 1.00, Temp3 = 0.02, Temp4 = 0.03, Temp5 = 0.00
GeoArm = 33.01, BalArm = 33.02
skirt val = 5
diam = 75.00
base_arm_div_diam = 0.44
good quality armor mod = 0.81
adjusted arm value = 30
~PzKpfw-IVh is hit, SIDE HULL hit by 76.2mm F-34, using APCR ammo, ~Pen 108, Armor 30, PzKpfw-IVh hull damaged ***

Does that about cover it? [:D]
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Alby
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by Alby »

[&o]

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Zap
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by Zap »

Do you know if that extra weight slowed the vehicles significantly? If so is that a modifier in the game as well?
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FlashfyreSP
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by FlashfyreSP »

ORIGINAL: Zap

Do you know if that extra weight slowed the vehicles significantly? If so is that a modifier in the game as well?

I don't believe the skirts added any significant extra weight; they were typically made of mild steel, not hardened armour plating, and were usually not more than 5mm or so in thickness. The plates were intended only to detonate the HEAT-type warheads far enough away from the tank's main body to prevent the plasma jet from forming; this defeated the "burn-through" and rendered the HEAT warheads ineffective.

And, since the Weight, as well as a number of other Unit Data, is abstracted, there is no modifier needed for having skirts.
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Stvitus2002
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by Stvitus2002 »

So that explains why certain Soviet KV tanks have a skirt rating of 70.
It's a "quality" of armor rating rather than a "skirt" indicator,right?
A rating of 70 would indicate cast armor, which, according to the forumula
is the poorest "quality" rating.










Joe D.
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FlashfyreSP
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by FlashfyreSP »

ORIGINAL: Warrant officer 0/0

So that explains why certain Soviet KV tanks have a skirt rating of 70.
It's a "quality" of armor rating rather than a "skirt" indicator,right?
A rating of 70 would indicate cast armor, which, according to the forumula
is the poorest "quality" rating.










Joe D.
Bingo.
There are a lot of tanks in the OOBs with "skirt" ratings, many of which do not actually have "skirts" attached. The field was a convenient place to add on to the database, without building a completely new OOB structure.
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soldier
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RE: Armoured skirts question

Post by soldier »

Very interesting stuff guys, thanks again
I was always perplexed by the amount of tanks with "skirts" and never realized the game took any kinds of armour into account...cool
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