new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

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delatbabel
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new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by delatbabel »

A summary of the most recent posts on kingtiger_501's house rules thread:


1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been supplied. No special supply twice (no changing the name of a corps then supplying it again).

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked more than 2 times per turn. Raise attacks and missions by 1 in the 1st clear turn of 42.

3) A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 3 hexes to it.

5) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

6) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

7) No changing the chains of command.

Optional

8) A corps must use all its plots (2 or 5) to enter an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.

9) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn.

10) No use of stacked HQs as front line units. No use of stacked Panzer Korps (No German Pzkrps can have more than 2 Pzdivs and 2 Motorized divisions, and must contain a flak and artillery battery) in '41 and '42.


There's been a lot of discussion of the "stacked HQ" defense, whether to allow it or not (perhaps allow it only for Moscow + Leningrad in 1941), and the suggestion that stacked german panzer korps are unstoppable. Hence my version of #10 above.
ORIGINAL: m39 white death

Well, I'm the guy who developed the HQ defensive strategy, and I'll tell you why. German players were jacking up their Pzkrps beyond historical levels to the point that no defense could stop them. Putting 3 Pzdivs, a motorized div, and 4 stug battallions in a Pzkrp guarantees success...there is no way to defend against this. The soviets can't put enough combat value in a hex to stop four or five of of these monsters, line abreast, from smashing everything in their wake. Add to this the complete air superiority of the axis in '41 and the game is simply not winnable, let alone survivable, as the Russians. In fact, its no longer worth playing, its that bad, and all experienced WIR grognards know this.

...

I have no problem with prohibiting HQ defense but it MUST be accompanied by a limitation on what can be put in a Pzkrp. 2 Pz div max, 2 motorized divs max, and the Pzkrp must contain a flak batt and an artillery bat, as was historical. ...
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by Attack »

Ok with these home rules.  I only suggest that should be no optional home rules, all should be simple home rules. It´s confusing: I prefer to play with a home rule wich I don´t like too much, than to play 3 PEBM games with different home rules.

Only about enter swamp or mountain hexes: a unit should enter and after attack if can do it without advance (with (s) after the attacking plot).
And an infantry army or korp, could advance normally in mountain hexes if has a mountain division, at least in good weather.

Some more HR:

- An unsupplied unit, when is supplied by air, only can move to its lines, not advance (if not, a Pz korp with half Lutwaffe in supply duties and other half bombing can reach any place of Russia).

Someones to balance the game in 41 campaign:

- The German can´t bomb HQ´s near Moscow in the first turn (too long, and could break the surprise attack in the front line).

- The soviet player can use HQ mules (change of HQ after extra-supply) during 1941. This endures the defense and simulates the better soviet supply near Moscow or Leningrad. And gives chances to win to the Soviet player.

- The German player can´t do strategic air attacks before august, 41. The Russian, can do (if he wants)

Only I argue about the limit of two interdiction attacks on a single hex. I´d prefer 3. Ussually, as German player, I do a little first attack to "scout" the ground forces and the air defense; and after I launch the two main air attacks, if the exploration is ok.

Someone wants to play PEBM (with me as Russian, but changing the next game) to test these home rules?
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: Attack

Ok with these home rules. I only suggest that should be no optional home rules, all should be simple home rules. It´s confusing: I prefer to play with a home rule wich I don´t like too much, than to play 3 PEBM games with different home rules.

OK by me.
ORIGINAL: Attack

Only about enter swamp or mountain hexes: a unit should enter and after attack if can do it without advance (with (s) after the attacking plot).
And an infantry army or korp, could advance normally in mountain hexes if has a mountain division, at least in good weather.

Some more HR:

- An unsupplied unit, when is supplied by air, only can move to its lines, not advance (if not, a Pz korp with half Lutwaffe in supply duties and other half bombing can reach any place of Russia).

Someones to balance the game in 41 campaign:

- The German can´t bomb HQ´s near Moscow in the first turn (too long, and could break the surprise attack in the front line).

- The soviet player can use HQ mules (change of HQ after extra-supply) during 1941. This endures the defense and simulates the better soviet supply near Moscow or Leningrad. And gives chances to win to the Soviet player.

- The German player can´t do strategic air attacks before august, 41. The Russian, can do (if he wants)

OK by me. I'm not so sure about mules, I still think it's gamey.

Sure, I always send my soviet Il-4s and TB-3s into Ploesti if it's undefended. Even if it is defended I will do so in blizzard after bombing the CAP airfield, the axis planes often don't fly in very high numbers in the blizzard, and if the soviets have trained the TB-3 force to a high enough level they can often survive attacks by small groups of axis fighters.

Killing the TB-3s on the first turn defeats this strategy of course -- just do 3 - 4 airfield bombings on Stavka on the first turn and they are all pretty much out of the war.
ORIGINAL: Attack

Only I argue about the limit of two interdiction attacks on a single hex. I´d prefer 3. Ussually, as German player, I do a little first attack to "scout" the ground forces and the air defense; and after I launch the two main air attacks, if the exploration is ok.

There is a random factor in CAP. If you interdict once and get defended by 20 fighters, sometimes in the second attack you might get intercepted by 70 fighters. So scouting is often not worth the effort.

The problem that I have is that each interdiction reduces the readiness and fortification levels, even the first scouting attack (even if it does no damage to ground troops). If interdictions didn't affect fortification levels or readiness beyond the first attack then I'd say interdict away all you like. This is clearly a game bug (hitting a unit 10 times with 10 bombers each time should not be 10 times more destructive than 100 bombers 1 time), so utilising it should be discouraged.
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by Attack »

But air attacks don´t reduce fortification levels! [X(]

I´ve done this experiment (repeat it, may be I´m wrong):

42 campaign. Near Leningrad is 2nd Shock army, ok? Human vs Human
First turn German: do nothing
First turn Russian: Put the northern fighters in training mode. Check the fortification levels of the 2nd Shock army and the Leningrad garrison (6 and 5)
Second turn German: Bomb three times the Leningrad garrison and/or 2nd Shock army, with little bombers
Second turn Russian: The entrenchement levels are the same (even sometimes Leningrad garrison is now 6)!

Another experiment, same campaign:
First turn German: concentrate all your bombers near Leningrad.
Russian put northern fighters in training mode.
Second turn German: Bomb Leningrad or 2nd Shock army, three times, with massive bombing.
Second turn Russian: Check the entrenchement level. It´s the same, or one level low.

So I think that it´s ok to bomb 3 times a single hex. Of course, the supply level will be low in 15 %, but it´s not easy to supply an army with a lot of fighters and bombers flying around!
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by DavidFaust »

The problem I faced when trying to get a new set of rules is that many different people wanted many different rules but they all wanted a simple set to follow. If i was playing a game I would only use these rules...

No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked more than 2 times per turn.

All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 3 hexes to it.

No changing the chains of command.


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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by DavidFaust »

This was the final new house rules......


1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been supplied.

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked more than 2 times per turn.

3) A corps must have x+1 Mobile division sized units in it to plot more than two squares of movement where x=number of Infantry division sized unit in it. (to avoid an abusment of Pz Corps)

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 7 hexes to it.

5) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

6) (3.3 only) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

7) No changing the chains of command

Optional

1) A corps must use all its plots (2 or 5) to enter an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex. Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain.

2) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn.

3) HQ's may only contain 1 division per hexes it is away from a enemy controled hex ; HQ's 4 or more hexes away may contain an unlimited amount of divisions. For hex counting include the hex the friendly HQ is in.
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by Attack »

It seems to be a general agreement in all Home Rules, except in:
a) The numbers of interdiction attacks on a single hex. I´ve experimented that only massive and repeteated interdiction air attacks will destroy one level of entrenchement. So I think that 3 interdiction attacks on a single hex it´s ok. And the supply level only lows 15%.
b) Number of air misions of an HQ. I think that only one does the game poor, and 3 are too much. Two over different hexes are OK, in my oppinion.
c) HQ mules. A couple of years ago, we were talking about during months. I think that, if you´re preparing a decissive offensive or defending a key city, all the supply available will go there. So HQ mules are ok, to me.
But someones don´t like HQ mules, even they hate them, so, searching consensus and to balance the game, I propose:
The Russian player can use HQ mules freely during 1941 until February 42. This will balance the game and reflects the superior supply level of Soviets when they were near their supply bases.
The German player only can use HQ mules from November 41 to Frebruary 42. To give it some chances to don´t shatter the entire army.
Of course, I´d like do not to have ANY Home rule. I.e: if the program only gives the posibility to do one, or two, or 3 air interdiction atacks, nobody discuss this. Or if was not posible to change the HQ after extrasupply, no arguments about HQ mules. Or if a Pz korp couldn´t fly along mountains and swamps...
But the program is not perfect. So, we must to have Home Rules to a fair, realistic an balanced play.

I think that it´s necesary:
a) A unit unsupplied, supplied by air, only can move to its lines. I insist: in a game (and against Josan), this way a Pz korp reached... Baku!
b) If a Pz korp, Tank army or Shock army has 2 Pz or Tank div, cannot have more than 3 infantry (motor o not). In a Pz korp, Shock army or Tank army cannot have more than two Pz or tank divisions.
c) No optional rules: all are Home Rules.
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by Attack »

Summary:

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been supplied. No special supply twice (no changing the name of a corps then supplying it again).

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked more than 3 times per turn. Raise attacks and missions by 1 in the 1st clear turn of 42.

3) To plot more than 2 hexes of movement an armored Korps/Army must be composed of AT LEAST TWO Panzer, Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry Divisions FOR EVERY ONE non-mobile Division. If an armored Corps does not have the minimum amount of mobile Divisions in it, it may only plot 2 hexes as if it were an infantry Korps/Army. )

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as an airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 3 hexes to it.

5) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or it’s supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with MINIMUM 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

6) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

7) No changing the chains of command.

8) When a ground unit enters in an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex, must stop and can´t attack more (even without to advance). Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain. An infantry unit can move normally in mountains if the number of mountain divisions are equal at least than infantry divisions.

9) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn.

10) No use of stacked HQs as front line units. No use of stacked Panzer Korps (No Pzkrps, Tank Army or Shock Army can have more than 2 Pzdivs or Tank divisions) in '41 and '42.

11) A unit unsupplied, supplied by air, only can move to its lines

12) No more than TWO THIRDS of total aircraft factories ROUNDED UP may produce Fighters. This does not include aircraft whose production type cannot be altered (lend-lease, Italian aircraft, etc).

13) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units may be sent to the West Front HQ.

14) The game may only EVER be saved after combat resolution to avoid "double production"

Someones to balance the 41 campaign (optional by agreement):
- German player can´t bomb near Moscow in first turn
- Russian player can change HQ after extrasupply until February 42. German player, only from November 41 to February 42.
-The German player can´t do strategic air attacks before August, 41. The Russian, can do it (if he wants)

If do you like this summary of Home Rules, please "traduce" it at good English (I never studied nor spoke English, I learned it reading Squad Leader rules).

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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by pandaingrey »

Nice rules.
 
Is there anybody like to play PBEM game with me by use the rules above? I would like to use the USSR.
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by delatbabel »

Attack, these rules seem like a fair compromise. I think there is still some disagreement with 2/3 air attacks per turn (you have added one after 1942 which is a compromise between 3/4 but not between 2/3).

Your english is very nearly correct. I will try to put together a slightly better version tomorrow but you only made one or two little mistakes.


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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by Attack »

Well, we can admit 3 attacks on a single hex and 2 misions per HQ along the entire game. No changes in 42, ok?
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Rewrite of rules so far

Post by delatbabel »

Just to correct a few minor mistakes in Attack's post (really, Attack, your English is quite good, better than my Spanish).


Summary:

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been special supplied. No special supply twice (no changing the name of a corps then supplying it again).

2) No HQ may launch more than two missions of the same type, per turn. No single enemy target may be attacked by air more than 3 times per turn.

3) To plot more than 2 hexes of movement an armored Korps/Army must be composed of AT LEAST TWO Panzer, Tank, Motorized, PanzerGrenadier (PZG), Mechanized or Cavalry Divisions FOR EVERY ONE non-mobile Division. If an armored Corps does not have the minimum amount of mobile Divisions in it, it may only plot 2 hexes as if it were an infantry Korps/Army.

4) All Soviet HQ's within 3 squares of the eastern edge of the map, are considered to be "beyond the Urals" and MAY NOT be attacked by player directed air missions, such as airfield attacks. The air groups in these HQ's can't fight however, they must be in training mode only. This rule no longer applies once the HQ has one or more enemy korps within 3 hexes of it.

5) Finnish forces MAY NOT attack Leningrad (40,7) or its supply hex (41,6). The Soviets are required to garrison Leningrad with a MINIMUM of 3 Divisions even though Finland may not attack. If the Germans capture Leningrad, Finnish forces are allowed to enter Soviet territory and engage in combat but they must remain on or above the 12th parallel.

6) No player may have more than 1 heavy tank factory for every 2 light or medium tank factories.

7) No changing the chains of command of HQ units.

8) When a ground unit enters an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex, it must stop and can't attack further (even without advancing). Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain. An infantry unit can move normally in mountains if the number of mountain divisions are at least equal to the number of infantry divisions.

9) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn.

10) No use of stacked HQs as front line units. No use of stacked Panzer Korps (No Pzkrps, Tank Army or Shock Army can have more than 2 Pz divisions or Tank divisions) in '41 and '42.

11) A unit that begins the turn unsupplied, supplied by air, can only move backwards, to its own lines. It cannot advance further into enemy lines.

12) No more than TWO THIRDS of total aircraft factories ROUNDED UP may produce Fighters. This does not include aircraft whose production type cannot be altered (lend-lease, Italian aircraft, etc).

13) No Hungarian, Rumanian, or Finnish units may be sent to the West or Italian Front HQs. No Italian units may be sent to the West Front HQ.

14) The game may only EVER be saved after combat resolution to avoid "double production".

Optional rules to balance the 1941 campaign, to be used by agreement only:

15) The German player can't bomb near Moscow in first turn (e.g. Stavka).

16) The Russian player can change HQ after special supply until February 42 (ignoring rule 1). The German player, only, can change HQ after special supply between November 41 and February 42.

17) The German player can't do strategic air attacks before August 41. The Russian player can do strategic attacks (if he wants).
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by delatbabel »

ORIGINAL: Attack

Well, we can admit 3 attacks on a single hex and 2 misions per HQ along the entire game. No changes in 42, ok?

All agreed.

Thanks for your input so far, most valuable.
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by Attack »

About the swamp/mountain home rule:
 
It´s only when a unit ENTERS in a swamp/mountain hex. If only attacks the hex, without enter in (with a "s" after the plot of attack), then can still plotting.
 
If not, as Russian, I´d fullfill the Pripet marshes with little armies along the flanks of the railroads, and the German player couldn´t advance without to risk to be isolated; the Pzs will advance in one to one hex.
 
 
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by delatbabel »

ping, make this sticky or something.
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RE: new house rules thread (was: new house rules)

Post by TDV »

1) A corps can only change its commanding HQ before it has been special supplied. No special supply twice (no changing the name of a corps then supplying it again).

Can I special supplied a corps and then transfer its divisions to another corps? is this against a house of rules?
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1 suggestion

Post by isaito78 »

For mass transport missions and unsupplied units that reach Urals, i think it's more playable to let units move wherever they want, but limit air supply to 1 air unit per corp. In this way, air supply only boost up units a little, unsufficient to be a strong force for months. The fact it's that air supply cant be as good as road supplie, so you cant be at more than 40% or less with air supply.
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1 more suggestion

Post by isaito78 »

And 1 more suggestion (from my experience playing "Russian Front" board game), because turns are for each side, not simultaneously, it's unreal let attacks ind a front line be against one unit, without attacking the adjacents defenders. Normally, unattacked corps try to help the attacked unit. I say, in order to help in an attack, the defender unit that is adjacent to me and to the objetive, must be attacked by another unit, or i will have to attack it. It's difficult to explain, but this rule comes from that game, where if you move from a zone of control of a unit, directly to another zone of control of the same unit, then you've to attack that defender (if he wants), who moves into that hex, in a called "Response Movement". I think it's a rule that makes more realistic front lines, not allowing attacks in a line to be conducted to only one element and the otherw watching the massacre.
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RE: 1 more suggestion

Post by TDV »

Guys, I’ve played WIR for 8 years. I’m wondering why you still invent a new house of rules?
I understand, the game has some bugs and unfair players may use it ( like SAVE during the turn, supply twice (changing the name of a corps then supplying it again), HQs as front line units, etc.)
Of course it must be fixed.
I can also admit historical rules (don’t mix Hungarian and Romanian).

But I don’t understand the rules like:

12) No more than TWO THIRDS of total aircraft factories ROUNDED UP may produce Fighters. This does not include aircraft whose production type cannot be altered (lend-lease, Italian aircraft, etc).

Have the author of this rule heard that Germans stop bomber production in 1944 at all? Why a player can’t do it in 1941 if he wants? It's would be not a wise decision but it would be his decision...

9) Usage of naval transportation is limited to 3 stack points per turn. Destination hex must be a port.

Do you know that all troops defending surrounded Odessa has been evacuated by sea in 1 week without any losses and Germans didn’t realized that Odessa is empty?
You can’t do it with your house of rules.

I would say you more. Why destination hex must be a port? I pay railroad points for the transportation. If I use port-to-port transportation it must be free of railroad charge because I dodn't use railroad, I used ships instead. Railroads were free at this moment and could be used by other troops.

15) The German player can't bomb near Moscow in first turn (e.g. Stavka)

Why not? First turn means a whole week! Why German would not bomb Moscow lets say June 26th?

- The German player can´t do strategic air attacks before august, 41.

One of the popular Russian songs of the war period has the text:
“Kiev has been bombed
We have been informed
That the war is come”

Kiev has been bombed June 22 ! Why a player can’t do that?

8) When a ground unit enters an enemy controlled mountain or swamp hex, it must stop and can't attack further (even without advancing). Under snow or blizzard conditions, the swamps are frozen and are clear terrain. An infantry unit can move normally in mountains if the number of mountain divisions are at least equal to the number of infantry divisions.

Here I agreed with Attacker: “as Russian, I´d fullfill the Pripet marshes with little armies along the flanks of the railroads, and the German player couldn´t advance without to risk to be isolated; the Pzs will advance in one to one hex.”

This game has a penalty for units moving in marsh and mountains already. Do you know how high "mountains" near Moscow? Up to 800 ft (280 m) only, with smooth slopes.
Is this impassable for tanks and we need additional penalties?

Finally I have seen the rule:

14. Maximum number of Stacking-points-units (no number of stacking points) in any german corps is 4, and 6 for russian. You can attach any number of non stacking-points units, like artillery, battallions and flak.
(This is because of the formation of large unstoppable Panzer corps and other issues)

I played Russians many times against humans. I stopped German panzers 27 of 30 times. May be some players don’t know how to defend the Russian side but this is not a reason to invent new rules
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Historical Rules

Post by isaito78 »

The rule limiting size of units it's because historic Korps where of lesser size for germans and axis allies (not sure about finland), but in the case of Russian troops, they were large sized formations. That's why in the game german inf. korps start to have penalties beyond 3 points, and Russian at 5 points. Historical operations shows that axis formations were of lesser sizes than russian ones, the fact is why there's a penalty to axis infantry corps and not to Panzer korps?
So i think if we limit number of units (Divisions and brigades), game is more accurate. Other reason is the fact that fighting with an high densitiy unit (squads and tanks per hex) had no penalties (in the attack calculations). I think it's a logical quantity 5 max for Axis (Its the max+1 that originally are in play) and 7 for russians (who likes mass infantry formation, and it's reflected in the experience of troops and Leaders).
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