IJ Factory Plane Levels

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Charles2222
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IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by Charles2222 »

I'm giving WITP another go for the time being, as my Civ4 warlords needs a patch, and I'm wondering about what to give IJ as R&D for the plane factories.

Mogami said that IJ should have all the R&D wiped out as it is in there just as a help to the AI. While it may be a help for the AI, the problem is that it's clear that IJ had R&D, so the question is to what level should I cut the R&D down to? You can cut down the R&D for each factory by switching it to another plane type, so incrementally there's several levels each R&D place can be reduced to without incurring cost to IJ. If you truly gut all the R&D and then build it up, you are then costing precious supplies to do so, as well as the repair costs. So just what would be fair for each type? Take a A6M5 for example. When should it have any R&D and what would be a historic barometer for amount? The IJ player has to ask himself these questions, simply because it's diffiuclt to imagine that IJ had absolutely no R&D on anything at war's start, which I take it is what Mogami's idea wold do. It's just too fell swoop to me, and it's much easier to deal with the R&D in my estimate by doing it in this manner, as opposed to getting in the editor and eliminating them. Also, by doing it this way, you still have a factory slot there, even if you do reduce it to zero.
SamCole
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by SamCole »

I would think that the basic R&D is what gets the planes produced at the historical times. The game R&D is to accelerate the deliveries.
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Charles2222
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by Charles2222 »

I was under the impression that they don't come online unless there's already a factory out there. If the R&D is wiped out they will never come online, unless, that is, they have a factory that emerges upon plane availability. I thought I saw some planes which don't come out with a unit, which furthers the idea that the historic timeline could come and go and you still wouln't have the plane available if it either didn't come with a factory at the historic date or there wasn't at least some R&D in advance. The chances of advancement are so remote anyway, and it's just as obvious that IJ had some pre-war and war R&D, that it would be good to know just where it should be at.
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dtravel
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by dtravel »

The problem with those R&D factories (which few people seem to understand, no matter how many times it is explained) IS that players convert them to producing existing models.  They have little impact on how soon the player gets new models and removing them does not delay new models at all.  While converting them to production factories gives the Japanese player a huge ahistorical boost to his production.
 
Think of it this way.  Which is cheaper?  Re-tooling an existing factory or building a whole new factory from the foundation up?
 
The most ungamey (for lack of a better word) course would be to do nothing with them.  Don't accelerate R&D, don't convert the factories, don't repair them.  Just leave them be until they convert to production on their own.  (This is assuming you don't edit them out completely, which would be the most historical option.)
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by mogami »

Hi, Nothing stops you from building RD as Japan.   But they did not have 700 factories doing RD in 1941.
The thing about these factories is not that the Japanese player cannot build them if he wants. It's if he uses the RD that does not belong there he gets a free 940 manpower and HI worth for nothing but the cost to repair it.
If you want RD take those now size 0 factories and build it. (but pay full price)
Convert your nate and Sonia factories to RD. do what ever you want except use magic
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

The problem with those R&D factories (which few people seem to understand, no matter how many times it is explained) IS that players convert them to producing existing models.  They have little impact on how soon the player gets new models and removing them does not delay new models at all.  While converting them to production factories gives the Japanese player a huge ahistorical boost to his production.

Think of it this way.  Which is cheaper?  Re-tooling an existing factory or building a whole new factory from the foundation up?

The most ungamey (for lack of a better word) course would be to do nothing with them.  Don't accelerate R&D, don't convert the factories, don't repair them.  Just leave them be until they convert to production on their own.  (This is assuming you don't edit them out completely, which would be the most historical option.)

That is how I used to play (leaving R&D as-is), but now I've been thinking about the Mogami idea, and using a variation of that. BTW, for the sake of argument, are not the allied R&D the same way, to help the AI? Wouldn't it be stupid of me then to eliminate the IJ R&D or severely limit it (without turning them into production planes) and let the AI allies continue on? I guess that would back Mogami's point about eliminating them but you would have to do it for both sides, that is, if the allies have any. I guess I don't get the concept of having R&D that's actually phoney as it seems you're suggesting. Why call it R&D if it's not really what it is (or is an excess thereof)? Maybe call it AI-help instead? I don't know, the whole thing is confusing me.
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by timtom »

In fact the dates when new types become available are already rather generous (both stock and CHS). In reality, it would take factories several months to tool up for production in a meaningful way, and the aircraft would of course only become operational even later.

Fx, while production of the Ki-61 officially commenced around the time it becomes available in the game (8/42), it wasn't until March '43 that the first unit - 68th Fighter Sentai - actually received any Tony's.

Allied aircraft types, on the other hand, tends to become available around the time they actually arrived at the front line.
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Nothing stops you from building RD as Japan.   But they did not have 700 factories doing RD in 1941.
The thing about these factories is not that the Japanese player cannot build them if he wants. It's if he uses the RD that does not belong there he gets a free 940 manpower and HI worth for nothing but the cost to repair it.
If you want RD take those now size 0 factories and build it. (but pay full price)
Convert your nate and Sonia factories to RD. do what ever you want except use magic

I understand all of that Mogami, but it seems to me that to call it R&D suggests that IJ has none if you knock them all to zero. Sure you can build them back up, but's what's the point in paying extra to get them to some level when at some point, pre-war or not, there was already some amount of R&D going on? I know the game not an exact science, but I sure think cutting them down to zero is taking the excess R&D that is there and going draconian the other direction. There should be some free to IJ, and I want to know what a fair level would be. It needn't be a set amount per plane type, but just some good number I can use for the freebies and I can then leave that many points out there.
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: timtom

In fact the dates when new types become available are already rather generous (both stock and CHS). In reality, it would take factories several months to tool up for production in a meaningful way, and the aircraft would of course only become operational even later.

Fx, while production of the Ki-61 officially commenced around the time it becomes available in the game (8/42), it wasn't until March '43 that the first unit - 68th Fighter Sentai - actually received any Tony's.

Allied aircraft types, on the other hand, tends to become available around the time they actually arrived at the front line.
Given that getting IJ information is more difficult it's probably not that unusual that such a mistake can be made, but I highly doubt they made every advanced plane following that lone example, as there are likely mistakes going the other direction too. So you would just have to ask yourself if the Tony's were a mistake or not on the designers' part, and then ask the same question for the rest of the lot.
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dtravel
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by dtravel »

Well, first off, the Allies don't have the option to expand their factories.  So the only way they can expand their production as historically happened is with these "phantom" factories.  The Allies also have no option to even attempt to speed up new model deployment or convert factories.  So if you eliminate the Allied "R&D" factories, you pretty much guarentee a Japanese victory as the Allies will not receive many new models and will have production at about 20% of anything even argueably historical.
 
As for what those factories are, in short they are lazy programming.  I will leave it at that to avoid an arguement with Mog.
 
As for your confusion, stop trying to make real world sense of any of this.  It doesn't.  All you are going to do by trying to equate the game mechanics to the real world is hurt your head.
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Charles2222
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Well, first off, the Allies don't have the option to expand their factories.  So the only way they can expand their production as historically happened is with these "phantom" factories.  The Allies also have no option to even attempt to speed up new model deployment or convert factories.  So if you eliminate the Allied "R&D" factories, you pretty much guarentee a Japanese victory as the Allies will not receive many new models and will have production at about 20% of anything even argueably historical.

As for what those factories are, in short they are lazy programming.  I will leave it at that to avoid an arguement with Mog.

As for your confusion, stop trying to make real world sense of any of this.  It doesn't.  All you are going to do by trying to equate the game mechanics to the real world is hurt your head.

Listen to what you just said, and I think you're backing one of the points I had, though it may be wrong. You suggested that if you eliminated the allied R&D then they wouldn't receive the advances plane types. So wouldn't it work the same way with IJ? IOW, if I take Mogami's idea blindly and eliminate them, I therefore won't get any of them unless I then find a way to assign new points to them somewhere. Clearly I would need the factory slots still there (and not eliminated) even if I did bring them to zero through mass-change and then boost some of them back up. That's part of the problem I have with the Mogami idea is that I fear there's all sorts of planes I won't get, at all, if I don't assign some R&D, barring of course that there aren't factories that spring up from nowhere when the plane comes online, which I have no way of knowing anyway.

So obviously IJ had some pre-war R&D going on for some of the types, and then later in the war some more for the other types (the later R&D should arguably be free or not?). Part of the problem here is I highly suspect, as you seem to believe, that if something isn't R&D'd that it won't come online, but yet there's no instruction that I've seen to cover that contingency. It seems to me the idea is so new that nobody has actually gone past the availability date of some plane they really aren't fond of, that they didn't R&D beforehand (even a very small amount) and then find out whether they received it or not,

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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by mogami »

Hi, without any RD aircraft arrive on the date listed in data base. So you don't need any factories at all to get historic dates.  There will be a fight over these dates.

KI-61 flew for the first time in December 1941. Similar to the abandoned DB 601A powered Kawasaki He 60, the lighter KI-61 had more pleasing lines with a better proportioned fuselage. The powerplant was a Kawasaki Ha-40 engine. there were twelve prototypes built in August of 1942. The pre service trials impressed the Japanese Army pilots , who saw the merit in the armament, armour protection, and high performance. Deliveries for the aircraft entered service in April of 1943 and it entered combat that same year. The squadrons it was assigned to was the 68th and 78th Sentais.

This aircraft flew in combat in April 1943 so it must have been in production for some time prior to that. 
In WITP when a new aircraft like the Tony enters production (in unexpanded factories) it requires some time to produce enough to upgrade a sentai to it and then the group has to repair the aircraft and then move to the front.

Example. 68th Fighter Sentai equipped with Oscar to enter combat with Tony in April would need to be upgraded sometime in March. To get 36 Tony to upgrade with in March production would have to begin in Feb with at least 36 per month or before then at lesser amounts. (and that would be fast track.)
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Charles2222
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by Charles2222 »

Okay, just as long as that's clear that the planes will come out the historic date, and, as you say, need a booster beforehand. Obviously then there's some call for not cutting all the R&D to zero, so that there will be a small amount in the queue to make a unit actually useable as of the entry date. One could cut all R&D down to maybe 1pt and some of them would have a surplus above 36, while others would have a smaller surplus, but it is a good average way to do it (although I do wonder if so few points will actually ever generate a plane while in R&D). Considering all of that, it would be interesting to know just what the rate of a R&D factory point converts into an actual plane and how long it takes generally.
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by SamCole »

I was under the impression that if you converted the starting R&D factories to existing aircraft that they would do an auto convert when the next aircraft in the series was available.
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: SamCole

I was under the impression that if you converted the starting R&D factories to existing aircraft that they would do an auto convert when the next aircraft in the series was available.

That's an interesting angle, and I think you are correct. Only problem is that's the chief reason why Mogami wants to eliminate the R&D. If not having R&D factories would stop a new plane from coming out, that indeed would be a way to get around it I can imagine.
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by dtravel »

The Allies don't do R&D.  As others point out, if you remove the "R&D factories" then aircraft models appear on time.  Now, once the model becomes available you have to have factories to build them with.  If you are the Japanese you just convert some of your factories to build the new model.  But the Allies can not do this!  So if there is not a factory on map or a Replacement Rate for that model, then the Allies do not get the plane!  Some factories will auto-upgrade.  But that still leaves some Allied models that are only produced by on-map factories that start as "R&D factories" and no other factories will auto-upgrade to.
 
Get it now?
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by mogami »

HI, Why would you want to screw with Allied production?  Aircraft that are production at start don't really need factories just set a replacement rate. IF you can set replacement rates that begin later then you don't really need factories.
The Japanese are not supposed to be able to target Allied production.   (I know because it is there...)
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: timtom

In fact the dates when new types become available are already rather generous (both stock and CHS). In reality, it would take factories several months to tool up for production in a meaningful way, and the aircraft would of course only become operational even later.

Fx, while production of the Ki-61 officially commenced around the time it becomes available in the game (8/42), it wasn't until March '43 that the first unit - 68th Fighter Sentai - actually received any Tony's.

Allied aircraft types, on the other hand, tends to become available around the time they actually arrived at the front line.

When I revised planes (originally at CHS request - under supervision by Joe Wilkerson) we adopted the standard that we would make planes available EITHER on the date the aircraft became operational in a unit OR (if that never happened) at the minimum period AFTER production began (or was estimated to be possible if it never happened). That period was based on the best case found for Japan - that of H8K1 Emily - which went from first production completion to an actual combat operation (over Pearl Harbor no less) in two months. This data - which ultimately didn't get into CHS - is what we use in RHS. Plane dates were often deliberately a year early - for various reasons - and "on time" meant "instant delivery to units in the field on the day the first production airframe comes off the line".

Not noted anywhere above is that R&D DOES affect production dates - but not by very much. It is even described in the manual: you get something like 1 chance per 100 R&D planes - and that is a die roll (we were told in a forum discussion) - and each such die roll advances production something like a week (or maybe a day). The more R&D planes you build - at a very reduced rate - the more chances you get to advance the date. But Joe said it never gives you a very great shift. And it is true if you do NO R&D you STILL get the planes on time.

Now the factory issue is really a code issue. It is not so much these factories "exist in 1941" as that they must exist in the database. I think of them as not existing until an appropriate time. Also - they are a crude way to represent something else entirely - assets tied up in development. In my games I have 'aircraft R&D teams' - and also factories assigned to 'pre production' or 'prototype production' - but WITP does it in a less complicated way. IF we wanted to we could do a PBEM (or FTF) ONLY version - in which PLAYERS assigned factories to planes AFTER they come out of R&D (which they will) - and NO factories are doing R&D at all. That would not work for AI - which is a big part of why the system is what it is. But a human both sides game could just bypass this R&D thing - and reduce the factory count appropriately to the real 1941 level - please advise if you like this? And for which scenario?

Another thing not noted above is that an aircraft will go into instant production IF it is listed as an "upgrade" of another type of plane - and at the full rate of that other type! While examples of this exist - look up the details of the LO transport in Japan - or multiple versions of Betty on the same line at the same time - it is not the normal case.
WITP allows it to happen when it could not - with dissimilar planes - because it is all just electrons - and code will do whatever we program it to do (whatever we enter in the upgrade field upgrades). I would like NOT to allow ANY plane to upgrade - but when I did that early in RHS players who like AI bitterly objected - AI is not bright and needs to know what to upgrade - or it never will!



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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

HI, Why would you want to screw with Allied production?  Aircraft that are production at start don't really need factories just set a replacement rate. IF you can set replacement rates that begin later then you don't really need factories.
The Japanese are not supposed to be able to target Allied production.   (I know because it is there...)


I think "the Japanese are not supposed to be able to target OFF MAP Allied production." And the biggest building in the world - Boeing Renton - IS on the map. Surely it can be targeted.
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RE: IJ Factory Plane Levels

Post by el cid again »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

The Allies don't do R&D.  As others point out, if you remove the "R&D factories" then aircraft models appear on time.  Now, once the model becomes available you have to have factories to build them with.  If you are the Japanese you just convert some of your factories to build the new model.  But the Allies can not do this!  So if there is not a factory on map or a Replacement Rate for that model, then the Allies do not get the plane!  Some factories will auto-upgrade.  But that still leaves some Allied models that are only produced by on-map factories that start as "R&D factories" and no other factories will auto-upgrade to.

Get it now?


All quite correct. But on purpose. Modders CAN change the data - either what is in a factory - what a plane upgrades to - or what the "magic" (off map) production rate of a plane is. For many types - obsolete ones - you don't want ANY production - so there isn't any - and should not be. It is all a matter of which plane you are talking about? I wish the replacement pool was date controlled - but it isn't. Anything in it is available day one - even if the plane is not available until 1945! And the production rate does not change either - unless you use factories to do that.
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