Mines...are they really necessary?

Rule the Waves III is a simulation of naval ship design and construction, fleet management and naval warfare from 1890 to 1970. and will place you in the role of 'Grand Admiral' of a navy from the time when steam and iron dominated warship design up to the missile age.
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vonwike1
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Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by vonwike1 »

I understand this game strives for historical accuracy and is classified as a sim. However, mines. What value does it add to the historic / sim / game experience with these mine dialogs that pop up so often. I might be missing something but the only way to mitigate is put on minesweeping gear on DDs. Which I started to do in subsequent playthroughs with all DDs at the expense of speed / extra torps / guns. No matter if I have 50+ mine sweeping DDs, every couple of months I loss a ship that cost a fortune and took 20+ months to build to a pop up window, with only a check mark on a build menu to attempt to stop it. If I'm lucky, a BC or BB will only be damaged for 3-4 months (why is always the BCs, BBs?). Does this really add anything to the game except frustration and a zero fun experience?

Rant over.
Stelteck
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Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by Stelteck »

Enemy ships can also hit mine, and in this case it is a pleasant surprise.

I do not agree with you as i think it is really possible to mitigate it. There is also a lot of old DD than become not very useful in battle, so can easily be upgrade for dedicated mine warfare.

In the manual there is a warning that not taking mine into account can lead to unpleasant surprise, and this is it.

I love these events (mines, sub attack, reliability issues) between turn.

But of course if you are right about the fact that it is not possible to mitigate them, there is a balance issue. But is it the case ?
Brakes are for cowards !!
varsovie
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Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by varsovie »

Since IRL there is more ship lost to mines than every other causes [air, sub, surface action, shore battery, weather, accidents...] during time of war, and that with every navies putting some effort in anti-mine warfare, the game would be missing a lot if there was no mines

I can understand the feeling of being cheated by the game when you lose a ship without being directly involved, but as Stelteck said, you too can even the field by deploying mines. After all it is the fortune of war, and I myself consider it a form of operationnal lose.
Searry
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Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by Searry »

When you lose a ship, you adapt to the new situation. It's a part of the fun.
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RFalvo69
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Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by RFalvo69 »

Mines in the game are as dangerous as they were in real life. The number of ships who triumphantly started their first operational cruise, hit a mine immediately and returned in dry dock for months can’t be counted.

The “Channel Dash” was one of the most daring naval operations ever and the Germans pulled it off perfectly - only to have Scharnhorst and Gneisenau damaged by mines right after it. The Scharnhorst ended up out of action for one year.
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WLBjork
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:24 pm

Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by WLBjork »

Also worth bearing in mind that all minesweepers are also ASW vessels, so spend half their time on ASW duty and half their time on MSW, abstracted by the ASW value being halved.

I ensure I have a small but dedicated fleet of KE minesweepers from the outset. If you start taking hits on heavy ships, increase the number of KEs available to help absorb said hits.

Also, TPS helps ships survive mine hits.
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Klahn
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by Klahn »

vonwike1 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:19 am I understand this game strives for historical accuracy and is classified as a sim. However, mines. What value does it add to the historic / sim / game experience with these mine dialogs that pop up so often. I might be missing something but the only way to mitigate is put on minesweeping gear on DDs. Which I started to do in subsequent playthroughs with all DDs at the expense of speed / extra torps / guns. No matter if I have 50+ mine sweeping DDs, every couple of months I loss a ship that cost a fortune and took 20+ months to build to a pop up window, with only a check mark on a build menu to attempt to stop it. If I'm lucky, a BC or BB will only be damaged for 3-4 months (why is always the BCs, BBs?). Does this really add anything to the game except frustration and a zero fun experience?

Rant over.
Battleships lost during WWI by cause: (Not including purposeful non-combat sinking such as gunnery targets or scuttling)

9 Submarine Torpedo(es)
7 Naval Mine(s)
6 Accidental Explosion (Includes Leonardo da Vinci which was officially blamed on sabotage, but was likely an accident.)
2 Ship Torpedo(es) (1 by destroyer and 1 by torpedo boat)
1 Disabled by naval mine, destroyed by shore-based gunnery while adrift.
1 Limpet Mines
0 Naval Gunnery

Of the 26 "combat" losses of battleships in WWI, only 3 would have occurred on the battle map. (Except for possibly the odd submarine torpedo.)

The game is already very ahistorical when it comes to the loss of battleships for gameplay reasons.
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EwaldvonKleist
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Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

varsovie wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:27 am Since IRL there is more ship lost to mines than every other causes [air, sub, surface action, shore battery, weather, accidents...] during time of war, and that with every navies putting some effort in anti-mine warfare, the game would be missing a lot if there was no mines

I can understand the feeling of being cheated by the game when you lose a ship without being directly involved, but as Stelteck said, you too can even the field by deploying mines. After all it is the fortune of war, and I myself consider it a form of operationnal lose.
Interesting, didn't know that mines were THIS dangerous IRL.
varsovie
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:35 pm

Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by varsovie »

EwaldvonKleist wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2023 2:58 pm
varsovie wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:27 am Since IRL there is more ship lost to mines than every other causes [air, sub, surface action, shore battery, weather, accidents...] during time of war, and that with every navies putting some effort in anti-mine warfare, the game would be missing a lot if there was no mines

I can understand the feeling of being cheated by the game when you lose a ship without being directly involved, but as Stelteck said, you too can even the field by deploying mines. After all it is the fortune of war, and I myself consider it a form of operationnal lose.
Interesting, didn't know that mines were THIS dangerous IRL.
There are a lot of resources on naval (counter)mine warfare or on operations where they had major impact (eg ww1 Dardanelles or ww2 evacuation of Tallinn or more recent gulf wars).

But a good entry level informations can be found here : https://forums.somethingawful.com/showt ... t463200625
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Sappho
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Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by Sappho »

The whole Baltic sea was totally "contaminated" with mines in WW1 as well as WW2.

Every operation there was extremely risky because of mines. I would like the possibility to lay minefileds as you want but I understand that this is in the scope of the game not possible. Mine warfare is and was a very important part of naval warfare.
God was only practising when he created man.
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EwaldvonKleist
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Re: Mines...are they really necessary?

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

varsovie wrote: Tue Jul 18, 2023 3:36 am
There are a lot of resources on naval (counter)mine warfare or on operations where they had major impact (eg ww1 Dardanelles or ww2 evacuation of Tallinn or more recent gulf wars).

But a good entry level informations can be found here : https://forums.somethingawful.com/showt ... t463200625
Interesting, thanks for the link! Also good to see you here @Sappho!
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