Gun quality question

Rule the Waves III is a simulation of naval ship design and construction, fleet management and naval warfare from 1890 to 1970. and will place you in the role of 'Grand Admiral' of a navy from the time when steam and iron dominated warship design up to the missile age.
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kvob
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Gun quality question

Post by kvob »

In one of my games I built a few cruisers with ten inch guns of -2 quality. When it came to rebuilding, I discovered that you can't upgrade -2 quality guns to -1.
It got me wondering about gun quality.

First: why can't I upgrade -2 10 inch guns to -1 ten inch guns when I rebuild?

Second: -2, -1, 0, 1, 2......what does it all mean? I've tried looking this up but find nothing. I've also checked the manual but it doesn't say very much on the subject. The manual appendix mentions that it's all about gun quality and rate of fire but
why start at -3, -2,-1 etc? Why not start at 0,1,2 etc?

Are these quality values from real life or do they only exist in the game setting?

I'm just curious but also hoping that understanding might help me build better ships.
Stelteck
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by Stelteck »

you can upgrade the quality of the gun.

To do this you need to change the calibre of the gun then return to the previous calibre.
The game then will ask you if you want to upgrade the quality of the gun for a delay !
Brakes are for cowards !!
tiemanjw
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by tiemanjw »

I believe -2 quality can't be upgraded (-1 or higher can as you describe).
-2 quality guns represent old 1890s era guns that effectively have the ship built around, and not "just" a yank them off and replace them.
I assume the -2, -1 etc is due to game history. In RTW 2 you started with -1 in 1900, I assume to represent "poor" guns. -2 quality were added to go back to 1890 and keep the same nomenclature as previous games. I started with RTW2, so I don't know if this is the case, but I'd assumed that +2 were added for RTW2 when it expanded from WWI ear to WWII.
kvob
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by kvob »

Thanks for that explanation.

I normally do the switch calibre then switch back to upgrade the guns but with -2, a message appears saying that you can't upgrade -2 guns. You can, however, switch to a lower better quality calibre (e.g. switch 10 -2 to 9 -1).
Stelteck
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by Stelteck »

Thanks for the explanation.
Brakes are for cowards !!
WLBjork
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by WLBjork »

It's not official but:

Consider the -3 quality guns to be old style black powder weapons, possibly even muzzle loaders.

-2 quality guns are the ones that used huge quantities of brown powder to fire (such as the British 13.5" Mk I). They can be adapted to use smokeless powder, but it's not efficient (the aforementioned 13.5" gun went from using 630lbs of brown powder to 187lbs of cordite, gaining a small range increase in the process).

-1 quality guns (and better) are designed from the outset to use smokeless powder (e.g. the British 12" Mk VIII)
brucesim2003
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by brucesim2003 »

WLBjork wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2023 5:23 am It's not official but:

-2 quality guns are the ones that used huge quantities of brown powder to fire (such as the British 13.5" Mk I). They can be adapted to use smokeless powder, but it's not efficient (the aforementioned 13.5" gun went from using 630lbs of brown powder to 187lbs of cordite, gaining a small range increase in the process).

-1 quality guns (and better) are designed from the outset to use smokeless powder (e.g. the British 12" Mk VIII)
Still doesn't explain the inability to upgrade them. What is stopping a refit from physically removing the guns and replacing them with new guns?
abclark98
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by abclark98 »

brucesim2003 wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:49 am
WLBjork wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2023 5:23 am It's not official but:

-2 quality guns are the ones that used huge quantities of brown powder to fire (such as the British 13.5" Mk I). They can be adapted to use smokeless powder, but it's not efficient (the aforementioned 13.5" gun went from using 630lbs of brown powder to 187lbs of cordite, gaining a small range increase in the process).

-1 quality guns (and better) are designed from the outset to use smokeless powder (e.g. the British 12" Mk VIII)
Still doesn't explain the inability to upgrade them. What is stopping a refit from physically removing the guns and replacing them with new guns?
Gun quality and length are very closely intertwined. As such, even if the weight of the gun doesn't change a lot, the distribution of that weight will. Not only can this unbalance the turret, there may not be room inside the turret for the gun and slide. For example, the 14"/45 caliber guns of the Pennsylvania Class battleships extended 14' 10.5" into the turret from the center of the trunnion to the breech face. The 14"/50 caliber guns of the New Mexico Class extended 16' 9.5" from the center of the trunnion to the breech face. The 14"/50 caliber guns would not fit in the earlier turrets without major modification of the gun design to shift the trunnions. Then the turret would have to be rebuilt to add weight to the rear. Even then, the now unbalanced gun will require much larger elevation motors, for which space will have to be found in the barbette. Power for those motors will also have to be obtained.

Those are some of the considerations just to change from what would probably be a Q0 gun to a Q1 gun. The differences between those gun and turret designs are minimal compared to the differences between Q-2 and Q-1 guns. While it's something that the player should perhaps have the power to do, converting from Q-2 (or even worse, Q-3) guns to Q-1 or better guns would be massively costly both in weight and budget, so basically no one would ever do it.
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EwaldvonKleist
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

brucesim2003 wrote: Thu Jul 13, 2023 3:49 am
WLBjork wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2023 5:23 am It's not official but:

-2 quality guns are the ones that used huge quantities of brown powder to fire (such as the British 13.5" Mk I). They can be adapted to use smokeless powder, but it's not efficient (the aforementioned 13.5" gun went from using 630lbs of brown powder to 187lbs of cordite, gaining a small range increase in the process).

-1 quality guns (and better) are designed from the outset to use smokeless powder (e.g. the British 12" Mk VIII)
Still doesn't explain the inability to upgrade them. What is stopping a refit from physically removing the guns and replacing them with new guns?
The newer guns had higher shell velocity and often higher shell weights, thus raising recoil, which required stronger mountings, which required heavier turrets, which would have required stronger turret bearings, and all together changed ship stability.
In addition, longer barrels change turret balance->you need counterweight->turret weight grows even more.

Later guns also had higher elevation, which requires more turret space and again adds weight.


Here you can compare some naval gun data: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_Main.php
brucesim2003
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by brucesim2003 »

abclark98 wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2023 5:45 pm Gun quality and length are very closely intertwined. As such, even if the weight of the gun doesn't change a lot, the distribution of that weight will. Not only can this unbalance the turret, there may not be room inside the turret for the gun and slide. For example, the 14"/45 caliber guns of the Pennsylvania Class battleships extended 14' 10.5" into the turret from the center of the trunnion to the breech face. The 14"/50 caliber guns of the New Mexico Class extended 16' 9.5" from the center of the trunnion to the breech face. The 14"/50 caliber guns would not fit in the earlier turrets without major modification of the gun design to shift the trunnions. Then the turret would have to be rebuilt to add weight to the rear. Even then, the now unbalanced gun will require much larger elevation motors, for which space will have to be found in the barbette. Power for those motors will also have to be obtained.

Those are some of the considerations just to change from what would probably be a Q0 gun to a Q1 gun. The differences between those gun and turret designs are minimal compared to the differences between Q-2 and Q-1 guns. While it's something that the player should perhaps have the power to do, converting from Q-2 (or even worse, Q-3) guns to Q-1 or better guns would be massively costly both in weight and budget, so basically no one would ever do it.
EwaldvonKleist wrote: Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:10 pm The newer guns had higher shell velocity and often higher shell weights, thus raising recoil, which required stronger mountings, which required heavier turrets, which would have required stronger turret bearings, and all together changed ship stability.
In addition, longer barrels change turret balance->you need counterweight->turret weight grows even more.

Later guns also had higher elevation, which requires more turret space and again adds weight.


Here you can compare some naval gun data: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_Main.php
Fair enough. I'll concede the point. Though I then ask why -2 -> -1 isn't possible, but -1 -> anything is. Is -2 that radically different to all the later models?
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EwaldvonKleist
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

Have a look at the link I posted.

Length/calibre raised from 25 to 45 over time, but then remained stagnant.

Improvements up to ca. 1900=big changes changing gun dimensions and balance
Improvements after 1900=modifications without much impact on weight and dimensions.

Some arbitrariness is unavoidable in an abstracted game though. Still waiting for the RtW and CATIA crossover where you have to CAD design your ships.
CLReed
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by CLReed »

Is there any means of assessing a baseline ROF for guns of different size and quality? It's easy to compare armor penetration and range, but aside from seeing a ship's ROF details during battle, it doesn't seem there's a way to determine this during the design phase. For example, what would the baseline ROF difference be between a 7" -1 quality gun and an 8" -2 quality gun?
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EwaldvonKleist
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

CLReed wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:47 pm Is there any means of assessing a baseline ROF for guns of different size and quality? It's easy to compare armor penetration and range, but aside from seeing a ship's ROF details during battle, it doesn't seem there's a way to determine this during the design phase. For example, what would the baseline ROF difference be between a 7" -1 quality gun and an 8" -2 quality gun?
You have to look in the game files unfortunately. But you are right, gun ROF and accuracy should be shown in the ship designer, and pen/acc/range for secondary and tertiary guns as well.
Here is the data from came files. If this is actually how it works, small calibre ROF is way to low compared to large calibre ROF.

Code: Select all

c	sw	ROF	mr
2	15	25	4	
3	15	25	8	
4	32	20	10	
5	63	19	11	
6	108	18	12	
7	172	16	13	
8	276	15	14	
9	365	14	15	
10	500	12	16	
11	666	11	18	
12	864	10	20	
13	1200	09	21	
14	1372	09	22	
15	1688	08	24	
16	2048	08	26	
17	3000	08	30	
18	3500	08	32	
19	3800	07	33	
20	4100	07	34
WLRoo
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by WLRoo »

The reason RoF and Accuracy are not listed in the ship designer is that these would be nominal values that bear very little relationship to the values you find applying in game where the values can vary from turn to turn.
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EwaldvonKleist
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Re: Gun quality question

Post by EwaldvonKleist »

Granted, but knowing the base value modified by current ROF tech would still be very helpful to make decisions.

Going with 15in instead of 17in for higher ROF would be an obvious consideration that has some grounding in reality/history. But looking at base ROF fire values would tell you this does not make sense ingame and you can pick the higher calibre without ROF loss.
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