Luka MS
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- Platoonist
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Re: Luka MS
It took me a few moments to realize you were referring to Iuka, Mississippi with an 'i'.
- ElvisJJonesRambo
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Re: Luka MS
Must be our game. Yep, had to snag the key rail city, during Operation Western Tenn. The rivers are packed with Gunships. Was hoping avoid facing Lee or Jackson, the top Rebel trash.
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Re: Iuka MS
Protecting the rail line through Tennessee does make military sense. I've done that from the start, even against the AI. Blocking access to the South's vulnerable interior is a priority. And historically accurate. Early in the war, the CSA disaster at Mill Springs is a good example of the South being stretched thin attempting to protect the rail through Knoxville.PvtBenjamin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:27 am Yes it was thanks for the lesson, from a game perspective this makes no sense. So now the South also has to have units protecting the rail line along the Tennessee.
Brigades make great blocking forces. If the Union makes a strong push, they'll hold just long enough for reinforcements to arrive.
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- battlevonwar
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Re: Luka MS
Supply for the Union in this region is abysmal ...
At first!
If in Supply the Brigades/Divisions and Corps aren't wiped out they're effectively off the map though. I do agree gunboat Strategy is HUGELY rewarding and there is little downside. 20 gunboats are so strong and when they hit they run and re-up and little cost. You don't wait turn after turn to rebuild them and I do believe they reduce Combat Factors as well per turn? (As the Union you can pump them all out practically as you please)
Gunboats say would equal 3-6 little ships with 4 or 5 cannons on them. So why don't large masses of Land Units like Corps or Divisions(or even brigades) Fire back harder? Isn't -1 HP point about the usual max in damage a gunboat takes. They are either too cheap or they take too little damage.
Early game I have seen them so exploitive it's a joke! Especially since the map is made with some major openings to let them in.
On the flipside Fortifications and well entrenched stacks of Massed Men are hard to break so you would have to allow for more Marines if you get rid of gunboats or the North will never break the Southern Massed Lines.
(I think the best resolution is they cannot kill a unit, or have a limited strike capability, men run from gunboats after the 3rd or 4th strike, why not a retreat or strength 5 being the minimum damage till the unit runs. Or the strike back is harder after each initial strike. If I have had my Division hit 5 or 6 times by gunboats you can bet as a General next time a gunboat comes down that River I'm going to set up an ambush for it!)
At first!
If in Supply the Brigades/Divisions and Corps aren't wiped out they're effectively off the map though. I do agree gunboat Strategy is HUGELY rewarding and there is little downside. 20 gunboats are so strong and when they hit they run and re-up and little cost. You don't wait turn after turn to rebuild them and I do believe they reduce Combat Factors as well per turn? (As the Union you can pump them all out practically as you please)
Gunboats say would equal 3-6 little ships with 4 or 5 cannons on them. So why don't large masses of Land Units like Corps or Divisions(or even brigades) Fire back harder? Isn't -1 HP point about the usual max in damage a gunboat takes. They are either too cheap or they take too little damage.
Early game I have seen them so exploitive it's a joke! Especially since the map is made with some major openings to let them in.
On the flipside Fortifications and well entrenched stacks of Massed Men are hard to break so you would have to allow for more Marines if you get rid of gunboats or the North will never break the Southern Massed Lines.
(I think the best resolution is they cannot kill a unit, or have a limited strike capability, men run from gunboats after the 3rd or 4th strike, why not a retreat or strength 5 being the minimum damage till the unit runs. Or the strike back is harder after each initial strike. If I have had my Division hit 5 or 6 times by gunboats you can bet as a General next time a gunboat comes down that River I'm going to set up an ambush for it!)
PvtBenjamin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:37 pm Well you have to protect the entire rail line not just the cities so with all the forts you need to protect along the coast how many brigades do you have?
While we are going over history how many LRATs with 20 thousand men were sent 200 miles down the Tennessee past enemy lines to capture cities?
I just has a 10 strength Division entrenched in a city reduced to 2 by river boats, how many times did 10k men entrenched in a city get wiped out by river boats in one week?
- BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Luka MS
How is everyone finding gunboats/river ships when they are attacking cavalry?
I ask this because there's only a very limited number of things I can do here (at least without radically altering the game, which isn't on the cards right now), and one of them would be to reduce the gunboats' Infantry Attack stat from 2 to 1 - their cavalry attack stat is already 1. I have tested that change out in the past, personally I found it just made the river ships in particular next to worthless, while historically it really was a case of, wherever the Union fleet went, the Confederates really couldn't defend against them. But it's an option.
The other thing that is potentially on the cards would be to prohibit oceanic gunboats from deploying in river ports (though they would still be able to sail into the Mississippi, James &c). The mention of "20 gunboats" suggests this may be a potential issue (the Union is allowed 12 river ships total)?
What I can't do is move the Tennessee rail lines (that's just where they were - though I have added the missing Memphis-Corinth route in upcoming v1.03), nor get rid of river amphibs (Vicksburg and New Orleans both used those historically).
Thoughts?
- BNC
I ask this because there's only a very limited number of things I can do here (at least without radically altering the game, which isn't on the cards right now), and one of them would be to reduce the gunboats' Infantry Attack stat from 2 to 1 - their cavalry attack stat is already 1. I have tested that change out in the past, personally I found it just made the river ships in particular next to worthless, while historically it really was a case of, wherever the Union fleet went, the Confederates really couldn't defend against them. But it's an option.
The other thing that is potentially on the cards would be to prohibit oceanic gunboats from deploying in river ports (though they would still be able to sail into the Mississippi, James &c). The mention of "20 gunboats" suggests this may be a potential issue (the Union is allowed 12 river ships total)?
What I can't do is move the Tennessee rail lines (that's just where they were - though I have added the missing Memphis-Corinth route in upcoming v1.03), nor get rid of river amphibs (Vicksburg and New Orleans both used those historically).
Thoughts?
- BNC
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Re: Luka MS
I definitely think not allowing oceanic the river port deployment is a great idea. And I have no problem with reducing the infantry attack.They can still bombard and reduce morale and readiness no?BiteNibbleChomp wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:17 am How is everyone finding gunboats/river ships when they are attacking cavalry?
I ask this because there's only a very limited number of things I can do here (at least without radically altering the game, which isn't on the cards right now), and one of them would be to reduce the gunboats' Infantry Attack stat from 2 to 1 - their cavalry attack stat is already 1. I have tested that change out in the past, personally I found it just made the river ships in particular next to worthless, while historically it really was a case of, wherever the Union fleet went, the Confederates really couldn't defend against them. But it's an option.
The other thing that is potentially on the cards would be to prohibit oceanic gunboats from deploying in river ports (though they would still be able to sail into the Mississippi, James &c). The mention of "20 gunboats" suggests this may be a potential issue (the Union is allowed 12 river ships total)?
What I can't do is move the Tennessee rail lines (that's just where they were - though I have added the missing Memphis-Corinth route in upcoming v1.03), nor get rid of river amphibs (Vicksburg and New Orleans both used those historically).
Thoughts?
- BNC
- OldCrowBalthazor
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Re: Luka MS
Don't change the gunboat stats. They would be near worthless. It not just the Union that has them and a change here would nerf another asset that the CSA has in it's suite.
As for deployment. Maybe restricting Gunboats from River Port initial deployments is the trick. For the Union...if they want to get to the Inland Waterways via the Ohio River, they can use the loop box near New York to get to there if so desired. This would also slow down the arrival of these vessels as only one can go a turn. This would make the Union have to make a considerable decision on this strategy of a riverine expedition from the north.
Now this change maybe a double bladed sword for the CSA though, if this restriction was in effect. Getting her non-river gunboats would mean sailing them from let's say Mobile to the mouth of the Mississippi to get into the river system.
As things stand currently, I personally think what the CSA needs to do is buy the river Ironclads and get them in the water...along with gunboats.
It's pretty effective to at least slow down if not kill outright Union gunboats...at least till there is a tech difference... particularly naval.
Anyways...that's my 3 cents for what it's worth.
As for deployment. Maybe restricting Gunboats from River Port initial deployments is the trick. For the Union...if they want to get to the Inland Waterways via the Ohio River, they can use the loop box near New York to get to there if so desired. This would also slow down the arrival of these vessels as only one can go a turn. This would make the Union have to make a considerable decision on this strategy of a riverine expedition from the north.
Now this change maybe a double bladed sword for the CSA though, if this restriction was in effect. Getting her non-river gunboats would mean sailing them from let's say Mobile to the mouth of the Mississippi to get into the river system.
As things stand currently, I personally think what the CSA needs to do is buy the river Ironclads and get them in the water...along with gunboats.
It's pretty effective to at least slow down if not kill outright Union gunboats...at least till there is a tech difference... particularly naval.
Anyways...that's my 3 cents for what it's worth.
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Re: Luka MS
BiteNibbleChomp wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:17 am I ask this because there's only a very limited number of things I can do here (at least without radically altering the game, which isn't on the cards right now), and one of them would be to reduce the gunboats' Infantry Attack stat from 2 to 1 - their cavalry attack stat is already 1. I have tested that change out in the past, personally I found it just made the river ships in particular next to worthless, while historically it really was a case of, wherever the Union fleet went, the Confederates really couldn't defend against them. But it's an option.
Yeah, I would change neither gunboats stats or numbers. It is no problem that they are hitting brigades, but they should suffer a bit from attacking divisions, and hitting corps probably should be a no-go. Can't you just increase naval defense of division by +1, and naval defense of corps by like +8? Then as I understand gunboats hit for the same amount as before, but will in most cases take 1-2 dmg from attacking divisions, which is not sustainable without repairs. And attacking corps would be kamikaze idea. No?OldCrowBalthazor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:40 am Don't change the gunboat stats. They would be near worthless. It not just the Union that has them and a change here would nerf another asset that the CSA has in it's suite.
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Re: Luka MS
Excellent idea Beriand.Beriand wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:47 pmBiteNibbleChomp wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:17 am I ask this because there's only a very limited number of things I can do here (at least without radically altering the game, which isn't on the cards right now), and one of them would be to reduce the gunboats' Infantry Attack stat from 2 to 1 - their cavalry attack stat is already 1. I have tested that change out in the past, personally I found it just made the river ships in particular next to worthless, while historically it really was a case of, wherever the Union fleet went, the Confederates really couldn't defend against them. But it's an option.Yeah, I would change neither gunboats stats or numbers. It is no problem that they are hitting brigades, but they should suffer a bit from attacking divisions, and hitting corps probably should be a no-go. Can't you just increase naval defense of division by +1, and naval defense of corps by like +8? Then as I understand gunboats hit for the same amount as before, but will in most cases take 1-2 dmg from attacking divisions, which is not sustainable without repairs. And attacking corps would be kamikaze idea. No?OldCrowBalthazor wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:40 am Don't change the gunboat stats. They would be near worthless. It not just the Union that has them and a change here would nerf another asset that the CSA has in it's suite.
I'd recommend improving infantry naval defense using Infantry Tactics research. Right now, Infantry Tactics improves naval defense of all infantry units by 0.5 per level. Perhaps that improvement should be adjusted as follows:
Increase of naval defense per level of Infantry Tactics
Brigades 0.5
Divisions 1.0
Corps 2.0
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Re: Luka MS
Has anyone compared the economics of using gunboats this way?
That is expected impact when blockaiding vs. Cost of repairing damage done to units?
I realize there is also the tactical benefit of using them against units too. In theory, using them for blockaids should be the greater economic effect.
That is expected impact when blockaiding vs. Cost of repairing damage done to units?
I realize there is also the tactical benefit of using them against units too. In theory, using them for blockaids should be the greater economic effect.
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- battlevonwar
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Re: Luka MS
Realistically !!!!!!!
I must say you're telling me that 6 or 8 gunboats can destroy a Corp or Division sized strength unit(over 10,000 Men with Cannons, Engineers, potentially with TNT and Mines) in an entrenched position with Inf Tech 2? It's possible this can be done in game and take little to no damage in return for the exchange. I DO know that you do need a tool for the Union to break fortifications/Stationary Units that dig too deep cause boring trench warfare but this is just OP as heck.
I have had many times where Corps can't kill a Corp cause it can retreat but that same Corp can get gunboated cause ACW SC Map forces you to use coastal/River hexes with Corps and Divisions.
My suggestion is change the Mechanic of the Game by limiting the number of gunboats? The Damage they do...Cause people believing 100 Cannons firing on a position where the unit knows that incoming cannon fire is coming from a Coastal River Hex would realistically and historically relocate, not sit there and take it. (Even at Picketts Charge they eventually retreated)
One saying the CSA can build them also doesn't take into account the CSA can't afford enough of them and tech them to put up with the Riverclads and contend with the Union Navy. You're talking about 1000-2000 research into Naval techs that simply isn't practical when they're that cash poor. I am also hesitant of giving away more cash to the CSA for this cause she will just build more grey blobs to place elsewhere. Event Units or Techs?
You could potentially make CSA Naval Investment cheaper say from Summer of '62 onward that would help. That or give her an event with "CSA Naval Innovation," where she automatically techs up to be on par with the Union. She will never out build the Union but then at least she could contend with the 4 Major Naval Techs that the Union will utilize to smash her with. Historically the Union would never have much greater Naval Tech than the Confederacy in 4 or 5 years. That's now how Naval Techs worked!
I am all for not making stalemates. So on top of everything else Norfolk is a disaster... Remove the fort off the City. As the swamp zone is very easy for gunboats to be utilized to even kill a corp off the coast of Virginia defending 1 flank of Norfolk.
I have killed 10 Divisions and Corps in 1 game with gunboats and land units combined. I have softened 20 of them for naval invasion and this a necessary quality to the game to perform naval/riverine invasions. I simply can say that it's just a bit off that they're utilized in open ocean water to hammer Coastal Hexes in particular and achieve such great results(this is hugely ahistorical) Men can march out of cannon range easily in this era but if it keeps game balance do what must be done!
I must say you're telling me that 6 or 8 gunboats can destroy a Corp or Division sized strength unit(over 10,000 Men with Cannons, Engineers, potentially with TNT and Mines) in an entrenched position with Inf Tech 2? It's possible this can be done in game and take little to no damage in return for the exchange. I DO know that you do need a tool for the Union to break fortifications/Stationary Units that dig too deep cause boring trench warfare but this is just OP as heck.
I have had many times where Corps can't kill a Corp cause it can retreat but that same Corp can get gunboated cause ACW SC Map forces you to use coastal/River hexes with Corps and Divisions.
My suggestion is change the Mechanic of the Game by limiting the number of gunboats? The Damage they do...Cause people believing 100 Cannons firing on a position where the unit knows that incoming cannon fire is coming from a Coastal River Hex would realistically and historically relocate, not sit there and take it. (Even at Picketts Charge they eventually retreated)
One saying the CSA can build them also doesn't take into account the CSA can't afford enough of them and tech them to put up with the Riverclads and contend with the Union Navy. You're talking about 1000-2000 research into Naval techs that simply isn't practical when they're that cash poor. I am also hesitant of giving away more cash to the CSA for this cause she will just build more grey blobs to place elsewhere. Event Units or Techs?
You could potentially make CSA Naval Investment cheaper say from Summer of '62 onward that would help. That or give her an event with "CSA Naval Innovation," where she automatically techs up to be on par with the Union. She will never out build the Union but then at least she could contend with the 4 Major Naval Techs that the Union will utilize to smash her with. Historically the Union would never have much greater Naval Tech than the Confederacy in 4 or 5 years. That's now how Naval Techs worked!
I am all for not making stalemates. So on top of everything else Norfolk is a disaster... Remove the fort off the City. As the swamp zone is very easy for gunboats to be utilized to even kill a corp off the coast of Virginia defending 1 flank of Norfolk.
I have killed 10 Divisions and Corps in 1 game with gunboats and land units combined. I have softened 20 of them for naval invasion and this a necessary quality to the game to perform naval/riverine invasions. I simply can say that it's just a bit off that they're utilized in open ocean water to hammer Coastal Hexes in particular and achieve such great results(this is hugely ahistorical) Men can march out of cannon range easily in this era but if it keeps game balance do what must be done!
Re: Luka MS
Yeah once the Union player realizes the power of gunboats the game can become comical.
I very much like Beriands proposal to increase defense values of bigger units.
Or you could restrict gunboats to only attack river tiles (+ maybe Forts).
I very much like Beriands proposal to increase defense values of bigger units.
Or you could restrict gunboats to only attack river tiles (+ maybe Forts).
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- BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Luka MS
I hear you. We're going to be dropping a patch very soon that (among other things, including some oft-requested changes to forts) will prevent gunboats from entering the hex south of Richmond. Other gunboat fixes will have to wait for the next one (1.03 is just too far along the pipeline now for more changes to be made to it), but I am looking at options. I listed a couple in my post on Thursday. Please be patient, even if a fix is quick for me to code, these things take time to releasePvtBenjamin wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:53 pmSo the game goes from the ridiculous to the sublime. This is the damage the Union NAVY did in ONE turn
1 strength entrenched div in city eliminated by ocean gunboats
5 strength ironclad river boat reduced from 5 to 2
I have my 10 strength 2 star entrenched Jackson HQ in the hex just SW (so it can attach and retreat via rail if necessary)
of Richmond but guess what ocean gunboats can go south of Richmond once the ridiculous fort is eliminated and my 10 Strength Jackson HQ is reduced to 2
10 Str brigade reduced to 2
OK then the most ridiculous of all New Orleans. In ONE yes ONE turn with just the Navy alone did the following damage. New Orleans is of course probably the second most important city after Richmond.
I have and have had for a while Hill HQ (level 8) to the east of the 'fort" in New Orleans with a level 2 10 strength brigade & division in front, I also have a river gunboat in the port.
The Damage (all of these units have been attached to the level 8 HQ
1) The attached fort in NO is eliminated by a gunboat in one shot
2) The 10 strength HQ is reduced to 1 (why I have no idea I guess its the levee thing)
3) The attached 10 strength level 2 Brigade and Division to the east of NO (in FORTS entrenched 4) are reduced to one
4) My 10 strength brigade I'm blocking the river to NO is reduced to 6
Who beta tested this thing?
I think there should be a new name American Civil War "The Union Gunboat Slaughter Edition"
As for New Orleans, most of that isn't the gunboats themselves, but a Decision Event for the Union whereby the New Orleans levees are bombarded, flooding the city. Given the geography of the area, if the Union had blown the levees, the garrison no matter how large, or how well led they were, would have been stuffed. The Union pays a massive price for doing this - 10k FS points for the CS - so it is by no means a gimme, and there's also a marker on the map warning the Confederate player about the event. Gunboats aren't the only factor there.
- BNC
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