Blood and Iron FS Questions

[OldCrowBalthazor]

As the French player (in my MP match) at the beginning of Oct 1870 I got a notification that Prussian morale [FS] was going to start suffering and French morale [FS] would improve. War weariness mechanic I suppose.
The thing is I am not seeing much of anything in Prussian morale dipping. There were some battles fought in the south starting in late Sept that ended the first few days of Oct.
The Prussians/Germans do hold Metz, Strasbourg and Belfort.

Anyways was wondering if this is WAD or is there something going on that's countering Prussian FS from dropping incrementally.
Screenshots included.

Challenge ID 397874

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I think what has happened here is actually a culmination of factors, some intentional others not, all conspiring to favour Bismarck .

I checked the scripts a couple of weeks ago when one of your videos started showing this trend, good news is nothing is outright broken

Running the numbers a bit more, the majority of this trend is due to all the towns the Colonel has occupied - each settlement is 2 FS/turn, each town is 5. Metz, Strasbourg and Belfort are actually 0. Given the amount of land the Colonel has occupied, it adds up to a fair bit - ballparking an estimate here it's probably -200 or so for the French, and +200 per turn for the Germans (that is, each French turn AND each German turn).

I checked the numbers against the SC2 version, the only difference I could see is that the FS value of settlements in that was 1 instead of 2, but there's only about a dozen of them in the occupied area so it's not going to make an appreciable difference (I may set it to zero in 1.07, haven't decided yet).

In 1.04, when you started this game, war weariness was +75/turn for France and -50/turn for Germany in October (+125 and -100 in November onwards), which will slow the trend down a bit but won't be enough to reverse it. I upped these to +100/150 and -100/150 for France and Germany in Oct/Nov+ respectively for 1.05. Additionally in 1.05 I increased the starting French FS to 120 (from 100k), which would equate to a French FS of about 62% were you playing on the new version, instead of 52%.

As for whether I should change something further, I'm not sure at this stage. The SC2 version has been out for ten years at this point, getting updates for a good part of that time, so one would think that any major balancing issues would have been resolved long ago - and this campaign is near enough a 1:1 copy of the old version (I did a parallel AI/AI test of both versions last year, the graphs at the end of the game were remarkably similar!). Additionally, I'd have a hard time calling this campaign a likely French victory based on the footage I've seen (I've watched all of both your and the Colonel's turns) - he controls all the objectives and looks to still have an upper hand units-wise. 1870/10/11 is turn 40/96, so you're 42% the way through the game, that being the case a "fair" FS figure for the French is 58% at that point (given the Germans lose if they don't control all the minor objectives by game end). Or at least, that's what the numbers say.
All told, I think I'd need to see more of this game before I can make a judgement on balance - I don't want to make it too hard for the Germans either, and except for the Thionville mess-up the Colonel hasn't made any really grave errors that I've noticed.

- BNC

[Taxman66]

That "Thionville mess up" was huge and on a scale that players with moderate level general SC experience won't make. If a French player can't pull a victory (given near equal play elsewise between the opponents) after that, I don't see how the French could ever win in MP and the absolute best they could do is hold Germany to a 'minor victory'.

Maybe the victory conditions should be 'tweeked' as much as the various game mechanics you're looking at.

Another idea might be to have some French Brigades muster/pop up in a few/handful of locations if the Prussians get close; or make a DE for the French (instead of automatic musters) so they have to spend a little MPP. That might mitigate the lone CAV unit rampaging along thin lines to distant FS cities. Call it recruiting the Spanish Border Guard (or Belgium Border Guard or Brest/Coastal Detachments, etc...). Perhaps have it cost 20 MPP (each time/per unit) which appears to be about the cost to rail such a unit. This would probably also vastly help the French AI from potentially over sending protective units against a player.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

BNC: Ahh with the changes you described with the new version things sound good. France would be in the neighborhood of 62% FS.
I just needed to get input about what was happening here. I wasn't arguing balance...yet.
Also its understood that MP is a vastly different game then SP. I'm sure it's not easy to design any scenario when it's going to be basically two different games if you get my meaning.

Taxman: My opponent is a skilled SC player. That Thionville manuever I pulled though was a surprise for sure. Clearing enemy controlled RR hexes to a friendly town/fort and then operating a force into it isn't seen much I believe. I knew about it by chance and necessity playing SC-WW1 as the Entente. Used that maneuver a few times in wide open areas of Russia to surprise and trap the enemy.

The mistake he made was not taking Thionville in the first place.
Also, this map and scenario was new to us...and we literally jumped right in to doing a MP series the day of release. He just didn't see it was coming and I had the manuever in the back of my mind each turn that I saw I still owned Thionville.

Your ideas sound spot on. I also beginning to wonder if a Stalemate condition or a French marginal victory could occur if Paris and other points closer to the 'German' border (excluding Belfort, Metz, Strasbourg) are held by France at the end of the scenario.
I'm thinking this as an option if the Prussian FS war weariness mechanic isn't tweaked. As things are though it doesn't seem like Prussia or it's people are tired of this war at all.

Still...don't want to give spoilers as my match with the Colonel is still going and only half way through..but battlefield casualties done on him has made a very modest drop of his FS.
It is a drop in the bucket though.

[Taxman66]

I'm not going to get in a discussion about the Colonel and your skill levels. I will say that not leaving potential back doors and trouble spots open is a big deal and I don't encounter it in MP.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I'm not going to get in a discussion about the Colonel and your skill levels. I will say that not leaving potential back doors and trouble spots open is a big deal and I don't encounter it in MP.

You never seen an opponent leave an opening to take advantage of in MP?
Anyways you brought that subject up first while presenting some good ideas and observations so I put my three cents in.

Back to the main subject, what about my idea (in my last post) adjusting the end game Victory conditions? I was thinking on the same lines as you about the fact that if the Prussians settle with just taking Strasbourg, Belfort, and Metz, and the French avoid the automatic minor victory DEC from Oct on to the end of the scenario in 1871...that the Prussians will get a Minor Victory regardless.

There's no way in MP that I can see the French getting even a Minor Victory (wirh players of roughly the same skill level-there's that subject again haha) in my opinion also like you observed.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

As I said, I think I'd need to see more of this game play out before making a call on balance. You're not even half way through the game yet.

- BNC

[Taxman66]

OCB, it's all a matter of scale and level of trouble you are leaving yourself open to.

The only people I've played in MP (at least in the past few years) who would make such a mistake (imo) are those mewbies who I've played in 'teaching' games where I would point out such issues.

Like I tried to teach, you have to look not only at what you can do, but what your opponent can do (while keeping in mind he doesn't know everything about your situatuon.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

As I said, I think I'd need to see more of this game play out before making a call on balance. You're not even half way through the game yet.

- BNC

Roger that we are just jawing.
I started this thread asking about FS and it intricacies...not balance.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

OCB, it's all a matter of scale and level of trouble you are leaving yourself open to.

The only people I've played in MP (at least in the past few years) who would make such a mistake (imo) are those mewbies who I've played in 'teaching' games where I would point out such issues.

Like I tried to teach, you have to look not only at what you can do, but what your opponent can do (while keeping in mind he doesn't know everything about your situatuon.

Ah yes...to teach is to learn.