Time to mod the whole game

[rxnnxs]

Ok, for now I only looked into the Steam thread and I had to write a bit into it.

Hey, thank you for bringing this vote to steam, and thank you all for writing in here.
But most names are known to me from the matrix forums
We could discuss it also there.
Interesting aspect regarding stellaris and their DLC though.
You know.. Paradox is a Company I do not want to talk about. It goes back to SoTS and HoI and their DLC Strategy and how they talk to their community like: "If you want Stellaris to get better, you have to pay more in DLCs".
And now I keep shut about them.

You all should frequently visit the Matrix Forums but I am sure, Steam is a Platform that is the Overlord of Gaming Platforms. Now there is a similar Thread on Discord, and that is the Platform that ist just "THE" ICQ of today.
Well, I keep on the Matrix Forum, and there it is votable.

But now I think we have made clear what we want - and the developers can make their own math (and calculate different then we do) somehow when it comes to moddable Games and profit and fun for all.

They talked about this moddability and they should accept the fact that the whole game is just (again [DW1]) more complex than they thought.

So I do not like some things that are written in stone in the game and i would love to change that.
I am not talking about obfuscating/releasing the whole code or the ability to mod a whole new game out of it.
But UI and the orbit of Stellar Objects as well as maybe the Models would be awesome.

With the newest DLC, we have more ore less the "shadows" from Babylon 5.
Now if we couild mod those ships into it - we all would profit, wouldn't we?

I conclude this for now, because I still want to play and have a life and can not invest 50% of my spare time in convincing others that want to make money with this and call it work, no offense!
When I come home, I want to sit back an relax. Right now every game I want to play is flawed in my eyes.
Shoot, I am too old for this

[frankycl]

Hi rxnnxs - nice to have you back here.

Well, I think this thread (and my links, etc.) is a start (although I think I failed on Discord quite a bit - I'm just too old (-school) for this, I suppose. ). And yes, it had quite some impact I think, but I also think that we can see now that it's quite difficult to get most of other players/posters involved/interested in this kind of thing (even if they all would be able to benefit from it). - From some of the other modders I even got some doubts and qualms that this thread/poll is good at all, because - generally spoken - they believe that the DEVs will do this anyway (some time), but that it will just take much more time... and that for now they have (understandably) other priorities.

Ok, but anyway, I think we should consider the next step now, which would be for me to make a poll about the things the people would like to be modded, if there would be more modding-stuff accessible.

Question is only, who will do what - and where (I hope you/somebody else, or even I could find someone who could do better on Discord than I - we'll see)
But, in order to do anything like this, we would first have to make a list for all the things that COULD be modded, at all (and maybe to prioritize what was/would be wished for at most - according to the already made threads and post from others - because otherwise this poll would get too big, I fear. - but if you wanted me to do this, I would gladly search the forums (including Discord) a bit, to come up with those priorities. )
Speaking of which: Do you happen, to have a profile on Steam, too ? - If yes we could much better discuss such things via chat, or other communication-options... - mine is the same as here on Matrix, so you could always send me a frirnds-invite if you want ? - Or would you prefere to do his with PMs here ? - Also a possibility (at least for me)

hi i am a modder from another strategy sci fi 4x game and i am probably also going to start modding for DW2 at some point in the future. (...) there is no better advertising, no cheaper way to let other people work on your platform than simply by enabling modders to work on their mods in the best possible way

Thank you very much for your extremely valuable insights (in my opinion) !
If I could, I would also put some of this in the OP... - rxnnxs maybe ??

Frankycl, do you mean I should take that snippet above and put it in the first page, the opening post so to say?

Yes, I would definitely do this !

[rxnnxs]

Well, I think this thread (and my links, etc.) is a start (although I think I failed on Discord quite a bit - I'm just too old (-school) for this, I suppose. )

Haha, forget discord. Its for those that are online 24 hours. Those chats are not my thing.
If the game has no multiplayer, the discord chat is

AH, back to topic:

What do we would love to see moddable?
What able to configurable via a config file?
I mean: Let us be able to change the galaxy size for instance via config options.
See here:
modding the galaxy sizes

Change the looking of a race if we want by adding a
pictures/leader folder or whatever.

[Ajeyyy]

I wonder why you do not write what game you are modding for. I am also sure it will not cut on the sales of DW2.
I am really interested in that game

well, i just did not want to advertise another game nor my mod on this page that's all. but i also have nothing to hide and since you asked and seemed to be interested in it: the other game i was modding for some years now is Stellaris and my mod is called "Aesthetic Cinematic Gameplay" (can easily be found on steam). i am currently taking a break from modding after spending thousands of hours into modding for the past years. right now i don't have much time because i am busy with family and work. but a friend of mine recommended DW2 to me and so i was taking a look into this game...

And boy i do have to admit DW2 has such huge potential in my opinion. I like many of the different approaches that the developers of DW2 took f.e. compared to games like Stellaris. In my opinion DW2 features some of the most enjoyable and in-depth gameplay i have ever seen in a 4X Sci Fi strategy game. That said apart from some buggy gameplay that could be improved over time, i feel like the graphics of DW2 seem pretty outdated, which was quite surprising to me after seeing that this game was just released a year ago.

I know DW2 is not so much about graphics and that's probably not the selling point for most people who are interested in DW2. However, i think if the graphics would just not look and feel like graphics from a decade ago, then i would fall in love with this game even more (and maybe many more people as well). Since i got some graphical modding experience, i was looking into the graphical modding options for this game but like you guys mentioned before, it feels like the options for working on better graphics for DW2 as a modder are very limited unless you install stride but i am not yet familiar with stride (i was using other programs for modding in the past like blender, gimp, vscode and notepad++). I don't know how much time i will have in the future but maybe i will manage to take a look into stride at some point in the future. We will see. Maybe some other skilled modders that know more about stride than me might find ways to provide a modded enhanced graphical experience for DW2 - i would love it

PS: @rxnnxs it seems like i am only authorized to receive private messages - so i received your message and questions just now - but unfortunately i am not (yet) authorized to answer or write new private messages - most likely because i am a new user here. i think it's a little bit odd that i am able to receive private messages without being able to respond but i guess it's for the greater good i.e. in order to avoid spammers in this forum. that said i think this post pretty much answers your questions

[frankycl]

well, i just did not want to advertise another game nor my mod on this page that's all.
(...)

I think that's quite ok - many others are doing it one way or another allready (it's only important not to start a discussion off topic about the other game - since this would get the thread closed, most likely).

And it's also interesting to hear about your other mod/modding-activities and -goals, imho. - So, thanks for those insights.

In my opinion DW2 features some of the most enjoyable and in-depth gameplay i have ever seen in a 4X Sci Fi strategy game.

Well, it sure has great potential (like you said), but it's not quite there yet, I think (and there are some other very enjoyable similar 4X-games, too, in my opinion - additionally to Stelaris) - but maybe it'll get there with some outstanding mods (and all the things the DEVs have planned/will release additionally).

(...) i feel like the graphics of DW2 seem pretty outdated, which was quite surprising to me after seeing that this game was just released a year ago.
I know DW2 is not so much about graphics and that's probably not the selling point for most people who are interested in DW2.(...)

Yes, I think you're right in this regard, too, but I don't think that the reason for not much interest in this so far (by the DEVs AND the modders/gamers) is that this wouldn't be wanted/is not seen as important enough, but mostly because of the fact that this might also have a great negative impact on general performance (dependent on individual hardware of the gamers, of course) and that the game is (still) struggling with this for many gamers already - or e.g. is limiting them in the number of stars or galaxy-size they can use.
So, if you (or others) really would like to enhance this aspect of the game, it would also be needed to do this with much as possible resulting general performance in mind - especially when it comes to battles or many models/effects on the screen.

Since i got some graphical modding experience, i was looking into the graphical modding options for this game but like you guys mentioned before, it feels like the options for working on better graphics for DW2 as a modder are very limited unless you install stride but i am not yet familiar with stride (i was using other programs for modding in the past like blender, gimp, vscode and notepad++).

I don't think that for something like this it would imperatively be necessary to use Stride, but you'd need to find a possibility (or get the support from the DEVs) to open and use the files in the db-folder of the game, because all of the things the DEVs created with Stride (and the game uses without (all of) Stride) are in there (exept most models for ships and stations).
And additionally there already exists a comand-line option (and a little program) that you could use to open/access these files (I already tried it once, too), but sadly I don't know/haven't found a way to store edited files in those archives again (but maybe you or others will ? ) - However it was long a ago when I tried this, so I don't know if it's working with the newer files, too...

But anyway, if you didn't know this already, here are some links:

- Download: https://github.com/DW2MC/DistantWorlds2 ... tag/v1.1.1
- CODE: https://www.reddit.com/r/DistantWorlds/ ... _released/
- Instructions: https://github.com/DW2MC/DistantWorlds2 ... Program.cs

(I think this was from "Q" (on Steam, or "TylerN" here), who now is part of the DEV-team, too )

[Ajeyyy]

... but mostly because of the fact that this might also have a great negative impact on general performance (dependent on individual hardware of the gamers, of course) and that the game is (still) struggling with this for many gamers already - or e.g. is limiting them in the number of stars or galaxy-size they can use.

well in order to run into performance issues there needs to be a bottleneck. usually most games run into either CPU or GPU bottlenecks. if you run games that are very demanding related to graphics then the GPU can become the bottleneck. however most 4X grand strategy games don't really have a GPU bottleneck, it's the CPU that's either not powerful enough or won't be used enough for all the calculations and that's why the CPU is often the bottleneck.

if people are having performance issues with DW2 especially with larger galaxies, then i am pretty sure it's only related to a CPU bottleneck. i mean even graphically more demanding games like Stellaris rarely ever had GPU bottleneck situations and the graphics for Stellaris are f.e. much more detailed and beautiful than the graphics of DW2. i mean there are even 2D games like Star Sector that are very old by now and that have much much better particle effects than DW2 (speaking of exhaust trails, projectiles, beams, explosive effects etc.).

Therefore speaking from my experience - and i am mostly a graphics modder - i am pretty sure one could improve the graphics for DW2 a lot without having any recognizable performance impact unless people use potato computers but then again there aren't many potato computers with high-end CPUs and low-end GPUs. hence the CPU will be a bigger bottleneck even for potato computers most likely than the GPU. the reason for this is simply because the base graphics of DW2 are that low.

And while it's true - like i mentioned before - that most people currently most likely won't play DW2 because of the graphics but rather because of the great gameplay features it offers, i am pretty sure with at least some better graphics this game could draw way more attention from the gaming community. i watched several reviews for this game by now and almost every review mentioned how outdated the graphics look. this game doesn't have to be the top notch graphics game - don't get me wrong. but i think if there was some better modding options one could potentially increase the look of the game quite a lot without even causing the devs to put a lot of work into it - because they will most likely be busy with other things like you said. therefore benefitting the community and potentially making more people look into the game.

that said i am pretty sure i am biased here because i like some candy for the eye and that's also what i was often focusing on when i was modding. maybe i am wrong and better graphics even provided by modders would have no impact on the potential player base but in the end i think it also doesn't hurt to give it a try ... however, thank you very much for your links! i will take a look at it when i have more time again and yeah if i was able to easily unpack and pack those db files then this would help a lot and maybe stride really isn't necessary then as well. i am looking forward to see what the devs will come up with next when it comes to modding and if this game is really getting more and better modding support and options.

[frankycl]

well in order to run into performance issues there needs to be a bottleneck. (...)
(...) however most 4X grand strategy games don't really have a GPU bottleneck, it's the CPU that's either not powerful enough or won't be used enough for all the calculations and that's why the CPU is often the bottleneck.

Although I think that is true, it might nevertheless be a problem here, because I can remember things the DEVs had changed in the graphics-/visual-aspects of the game, in order to enhance game-performance and stability in the early days of the game (but the graphics weren't much better/different before, either).

I'm no expert in such things (although not a total Noob, either), but I think the "bottleneck" is the Stride-engine in this case, because many players had (and some still have) serious technical problems with various hardware-systems - but mostly with AMD-graphic-cards. - For me it seems like there is no great GPU-bottleneck for some systems (like mine, too), but for some others it might be there very well - and the (much bigger) CPU-bottleneck that applies to all of the different systems.

But of course, that would have to be found out - after you (or others) would have created mods to enhance graphic-aspects of the game. - Just saying that it might not be as easy as with other games/engines.

if people are having performance issues with DW2 especially with larger galaxies, then i am pretty sure it's only related to a CPU bottleneck. (...)

In most cases it's not the size of the galaxy, but the number of stars/empires/creatures/pirates/events, etc. - and therefore also the number of models/units/effects, etc. that need to be displayed and calculated at once (and with the seamless zoom from galaxy-view to an extreme close-up also in a very short time ) at late- or end-game-phases. (It's possible to create millions of objects in those games, even within the (hardware-) limits the game sets for the individual systems at game-start - just because you can play the game/let it run for a (theorethically) infinite time. )
The DEVs have even already reduced the general mining-speed in the game, in order to have less built objects/units in those extremely crowded late- and end-game scenarios (among other goals/benefits that such a drastic gamplay-change might include).

And while it's true - like i mentioned before - that most people currently most likely won't play DW2 because of the graphics but rather because of the great gameplay features it offers, i am pretty sure with at least some better graphics this game could draw way more attention from the gaming community. (...)

I think this is true not only for the community, but for all potential or current gamers - and I'm even convinced that many of them WILL "most likely (...) play DW2 because of the graphics" (among others) - especially on Steam, IF you (or others) would really manage to enhance the graphics of the game significantly (but without (or at least with little) negative effect on the general performance for the most hardware-systems).

So, if you have the possibility to do this, please try it (!) - I think the least benefit for all of us could be the fact that we (the community AND the DEVs) would get to know what is possible (with the engine and the different hardware-systems) and what isn't - so, in any way the result can only be positive, imho.

[rxnnxs]

For now, I am looking inside this thread and try to understand it all. Then, install stride with all it components.
This will take a while

MOD Info from Elliot

P.S.: I have not even read all of what you wrote, will read and respond later.

[frankycl]

For now, I am looking inside this thread and try to understand it all. Then, install stride with all it components.
This will take a while

MOD Info from Elliot

P.S.: I have not even read all of what you wrote, will read and respond later.

Oh wow - thanks rxnnxs - I think you might be the first one to do this... and (at least) I'm VERY curious/excited what you might come up with !

But the modding-thread you linked is VERY old (it was there, even before release) and I don't think/would know that the DEVs have updated it much since then - or do know anything new in there

[rxnnxs]

I know, but if there is anything more, please post it here too.
I am installing stride and visual studio right now.

Besides that, the downloads given us at the thread i linked to are not that much help.
What I tried did not work.
Replacing music is now not working as i want, there is no much documentation how that i sdone, and even the developer themselfes somehow throw music in the folder.. all sounds the same, and so on, you know what i mean when you look in the folder.

and rearding for instance the orbit.xml, the nighlights... nothing works as it should (there is a mod from me that does make it much better).
but i tried to change the color, change the alpha channel, nothing happens.
the one value that somehow changes the visibility of the nightlights is a float. no documentation there.
if I could just overwrite the picture for the nightlights. its always the same as you know..
but for this stride is needed. or the content extractor.
hmmm.. where do I have to put that into?
have to find out..

[frankycl]

(...) the downloads given us at the thread i linked to are not that much help.
What I tried did not work.
(...)
and rearding for instance the orbit.xml, the nighlights... nothing works as it should (there is a mod from me that does make it much better).

Hm -do you mean the DW2 Data Editor ? - Yes, this is not very helpful, indeed - and nobody uses it, I think.


But replacing/altering the music for the game is easy: just delete/exchange or add any file you want (in every sub-folder in the music-dirctory) - and you can also use several different music-formats, like mp3, wma, wav or flac.

It also only uses a very simple system for chosing which file(s) should be played:
exept for the main-menu and the credits it always plays the music/files that you got in the sub-directories, but if you delete the files (or even one of the sub-directories) completely, the game plays the file(s) in the directory above the deleted or empty one.

(However the music-mangement (= what music is played when in the game) is something completely different (and set up only very rudimentally, so far) - and sadly it's all hard-coded (although there are some entrties in several XML-files where you should be able to define at least 1 music-file that's played in specific situations - but it's mostly not working at all (so far) ) )

But I'm allready working with my son on a mod for unique music for different races and/or different situations/locations in-game - and it's my project by heart, so to speak, but it's not easy and a lot of work, sadly...

[Galaxy227]

I feel like the game needs to be built around modding from the start of development. It could just be too difficult or time-consuming at this point for Elliot to truly "open" the game up to modding to any significant extent.

[frankycl]

I feel like the game needs to be built around modding from the start of development. It could just be too difficult or time-consuming at this point for Elliot to truly "open" the game up to modding to any significant extent.

Why so ? - They could at least de-obfuscate some more files (or give us a programm to open/edit the db-archives) and let the skilled coders try some things - this would certainly NOT be very time-consuming.

[rxnnxs]

I feel like the game needs to be built around modding from the start of development. It could just be too difficult or time-consuming at this point for Elliot to truly "open" the game up to modding to any significant extent.

Why so ? - They could at least de-obfuscate some more files (or give us a programm to open/edit the db-archives) and let the skilled coders try some things - this would certainly NOT be very time-consuming.

Yes, I think exatly like this. They had modding in mind from the start, but on the other hand I have to admit that what they do is somehow patching a big old garment with holes in it.
maybe it is stride, maybe its the way it is programmed - and that might be part of the problem (/correcte the typo "program").

[AKicebear]

I also wonder if maybe there is some ambivalence to opening it up to code modding.

Perhaps because of issues with the engine - why invite all the possible bug complaints from poorly implemented code mods. Perhaps it's easy to say, but once you're at the threshold of releasing deobfuscated code you built for a decade, it's a much bigger deal than imagined. Perhaps it's a worry that it will cannibalize future DLC sales.

I still think the main reason is a focus on the base game performance - it's a small team that has to prioritize. But from my perspective, after some improvements to the ship designer including more refined moddable templates, general modding support should be the top priority of the next 6 months roadmap.

[frankycl]

I also wonder if maybe there is some ambivalence to opening it up to code modding.

Perhaps (...)

Yes, perhaps... But nevertheless they could do some little things that WON't need much time or put them in any danger of new / reveales bugs and issues (at least not more than it's the case anyway )
Like e.g. they could open a way to use Harmony-mods again ! - They already provided us with a harmony.dll and it was quite usable (but not in anyway documented) - and it's still there... but now not usable because of the change to .NET 7, Stride 4x and the inclusion in the main EXE-file.
But even Q/TylerN had confirmed that it would be possible to open Harmony again.

And secondly they wouldn't need to de-obfuscate everything at once (or even make some things open-source) - it would be sufficient to do this with some files, one after another (or to outsource some parts of the main EXE again) - or to share their tool(s) - they already have/use - in order to open the db-archives and to do some simple file-exchange or texture-editing. -Even that would make soooo many things more possible, than what's possible atm.

(And bsds: Modders were always for themselves responsible for their/new bugs bugs in their mods (and possible fixes/updates, etc.) - and also in the forums the DEVs wouldn't need discuss any of this with the community. )

I still think the main reason is a focus on the base game performance - it's a small team that has to prioritize.

Yes they are, and yes they have - but doing just a little bit of the things I mentioned above wouldn't make a big difference here, I think - it's more a question of the relation between modding-importance on the one hand and the importance of not disappointing users/gamers of the vanilla game on the other hand... but they already did much more than I suggested obove for XML-Editing of the already opened up files, I think.

But from my perspective, after some improvements to the ship designer including more refined moddable templates, general modding support should be the top priority of the next 6 months roadmap.

Seconded VERY strongly - but I fear this will take much longer...

[rxnnxs]

Yes, what you both say I can undersign also.
Regarding the modding that AKicebear talked about - I also read this three times, but I guess its was meant not in the direction of modders/players that fiddle with some code snippets, but the developer was meant that has done so much "harm" to the code itself for various reasons (stride has changed, and all the stuff that comes with it ..) that its a mess (again) that is not (easy to be) rewritten because there is not time..

So.. I hope (from the beginning of DW2 when it was first talked about) that this Version 2 is able to be "healthier" in the code-base and engine-based than the first game.

I said long ago in the forums, that it would be better to keep DW as it is, just rewrite it better to make it future friendly.
No 3D, not experiments, everything as before but with better UI that scales better and has better fonts. Resizable fonts!
Hmm, enough sa(i)d