DW2-XL v1.11.2 Available

[Intaka]

Scott, when you check DW2>data>logs for the most recent crashdump file, what is the reason for your crash? (big picture)

I am having an unavoidable crash due to "determine stock levels" out of bounds, for example, in 1.1.0.3 with XL mod Steam Workshop, but I can't confirm if it's just the beta or this mod causing it. Thankfully 1.1.0.3 has been MUCH more stable than 1.1.0.0 was for me. Right up until the game unavoidably crashes at least.

[mordachai]

So I love the mod - but the problem is that for the third time - at some point mid game, it crashes and reloading the save makes it crash again a few minutes later (at the same point). Newest beta with your latest version (steam workshop installed).

Don't know if the error logs would help. I don't have this problem just dw2.

Thanks and again - love the mod except for the obvious issue with getting stuck with a bad save.

For better & worse - this is a known bug - "Stock Level Crash Bug" - that Slitherine introduced in the 1.1.0.3 release. It's random if you hit it, or when you hit it, but once a game does - it's pretty much toast.

They're expecting to release a new beta "soon" (hopefully this Thurs) that will address this bug.

Very glad folks are enjoying it overall - and I wish there were more I can do - but like you - I'm just in a holding pattern until this is fixed in the engine. Not really worth starting a new game before then, IMO.

[AKicebear]

So I love the mod - but the problem is that for the third time - at some point mid game, it crashes and reloading the save makes it crash again a few minutes later (at the same point). Newest beta with your latest version (steam workshop installed).

Don't know if the error logs would help. I don't have this problem just dw2.

Thanks and again - love the mod except for the obvious issue with getting stuck with a bad save.

Are you experiencing the same with unmodified 1103? This type of bug is widely reported on that version of the base game, due to stock AI issues...

[Scott2933]

OK -Yes - it's the stock level bug. Glad to hear it's not the mod and that it's being fixed. And yes - game over once you get it.

S

[Intaka]

BUG: There is a FTR stealth component (size 5, I space stealth sheath 20% and 25% version) which is usable on starbases in the current 1.1.0.6 build, but other than that a completely flawless playthrough. Very enjoyable.

QUESTION: Are you in process on a weapon balance pass? That one section alone of the research tree still seems a bit wonky balance wise, as per vanilla. It's probably the hardest one to balance, in all fairness. So many unintended consequences. Is there ever a reason to take phasers over titan beams? Do AoE weapons ever reach damage equivalency even in large clustered engagements? As you know, reactive rating vs per shot damage, armor and shield bonus/malus, range, % damage lost per distance... there's a lot to consider. I just wish each kind of weapon had a more clearly defined role which encouraged mix and match over beeline monopoly.

[AKicebear]

I just wish each kind of weapon had a more clearly defined role which encouraged mix and match over beeline monopoly.

This would be great, but I suspect would require a revamp of the automatic ship designer? The first game seemed to do a better job with this, or is that because I'm only remembering it post Icemania AI mod?

[AKicebear]

Separate question for Mordachai - does this mod play nice with game setup of very expensive/slow research?

I tried this last week and had a hard time telling if it was truly slower, whereas it's very obvious in the base game settings. Maybe I am misremembering... Can try a few experiments next week.

[Intaka]

@Akicebear... the early techs in the mod are much cheaper than vanilla, and the late techs are more expensive. Keep that in mind when trying to perceive the impacts of "slower research". Maybe start a game with the mod deactivated on level 7 research, check an end research time for a level 8 research item... then enable XL (quit and restart) and check same item research time again. If you are starting at level 0 or 1 you may be having a warped perception based on the way this mod makes going up a tier a bigger commitment. Just a thought, if you want to investigate.

[mordachai]

QUESTION: Are you in process on a weapon balance pass? That one section alone of the research tree still seems a bit wonky balance wise, as per vanilla. It's probably the hardest one to balance, in all fairness. So many unintended consequences. Is there ever a reason to take phasers over titan beams? Do AoE weapons ever reach damage equivalency even in large clustered engagements? As you know, reactive rating vs per shot damage, armor and shield bonus/malus, range, % damage lost per distance... there's a lot to consider. I just wish each kind of weapon had a more clearly defined role which encouraged mix and match over beeline monopoly.

On my personal wish-list is "spreadsheet the entire weapons list"

There are MASSIVE imbalances all over the place - inherited from vanilla. I probably did it no favors by moving a few things around to balance the tech tree itself a bit better - and what weapon tech-levels I added, I tried to "balance" to the current tree & surrounding techs - BUT to do that well, those surrounding techs should have already been balanced, and they simply aren't.

I've modded & played a lot of grand strategy games, and space operas especially - and there is no "balance" that is going to satisfy everyone, in every situation, and every game-start, galaxy creation, race-choice, and on and on. Not a real thing, not a valid goal even, in my zero-humble opinion.

That said - I do feel strongly that it's possible and desirable to bring things more into balance than they are, even knowing that it will always be a gross approximation - and that in the end - what is most important is to create a fun game with multiple viable pathways through the tech tree that are interesting and exciting to play.

It's more important to me that there NOT be an obvious "I win" tech-line, then that all techs line up perfectly! and keep in mind - "line-up" depends on what lens you're using to make that claim - RTP / space? RTP / slot used? RTP / unit energy? RTP / avg. target count? RTP / tech-level / energy / target-count / space? Or some other set of measures... such as Ion weapons - how do you compare shutting down various ship-systems vs. dealing dmg. vs. shield bypass or armor bypass etc.? Oh, and range... that's important. Oh, and Alpha strike - how much damage does that opening volley do? Or more usefully in this game - how concentrated is the damage -- lots of small-value shots tend to be eaten up by deflection value of shields and armor, vs. a more concentrated large explosion which is better at delivering that damage as actual unignorable damage?

How do you balance all of that against stealth components? ecm? all shields vs. all armor?

It's an impossible task - and one that everyone will argue to death -- given my pervious experiences with many, many games. So... what's a modder (or game designer) to do?

I want to at least spreadsheet some of the values - attempt to "balance" them against each other - at least for like weapon-classes - so your blasters vs. beams vs. rail-guns -- straight up damaging weapons with relatively simple anti-shield or anti-armor properties.

Then... well, then make some adjustments to the weird weapons - ION & Gravitic - to have at least some sense of how they measure up. BUT, honestly, to do this right - I would need an actual simulator - and be able to runs thousands of sims of various load-outs to find "balance" (and then for a given scenario). Still -would be very helpful - assuming I had the time and gave enough of a damn...

Another thought I have is to revamp the tech tree so it's more of a tree, and less of a bunch of parallel saplings. I dislike that gravitic starts at the bottom. More interesting would be to unlock those at a higher level from beams perhaps... maybe give them an either-or unlock from higher tech pulsed and beams - so you can do either for your early game - and then move to gravitic IF you want to - as somethin to explore some mid-late games...

For me, again, it's more that I want to create meaningful choices - meaningful in terms of game-fun-interesting-factor, NOT meaningful like "there's one and only one smart approach"

I'm more interested in "can I find a build that optimizes ION and makes those a truly fun / awesome path to follow?"

Specific feedback is welcome - but this is a heavy lift - and one I'm not especially eager to jump into -- until I have a better sense of where I want to go with it - and Slitherine gives me better control over the AIs ship-building algos so that they aren't total morons when building their ships...

[mordachai]

Also - as to AOE - I have no idea whatsoever how effective or not those weapons are. Their DPS is trash - probably because they can/should be able to hit multiple targets at once - but how can you possibly tell in order to evaluate the weapon?

I might just downgrade all AoE to medium sized, like I did with the bombardment weapons, to make them more competitive. They're already low dps - and I doubt very much that they're more effective than medium energy torpedoes - so seems fitting.

Large weapons in general in DW2 are - literally - no better than their medium variety - but way more space-consuming. So all of those desperately need to be rebalanced so that there is some point in taking them that justifies 1x LG over 2x MD (right now, I think the answer to that is almost universally "no" - but situationally might be "yes" - e.g. when you have so much space that you can fit the larger ones w/o sacrificing any other component whatsoever - or if you're designing a kiting ship - and the range is just everything for that ship - then the large variety might justify the loss in total DPS).

[AKicebear]

Another thought I have is to revamp the tech tree so it's more of a tree, and less of a bunch of parallel saplings. I dislike that gravitic starts at the bottom. More interesting would be to unlock those at a higher level from beams perhaps... maybe give them an either-or unlock from higher tech pulsed and beams - so you can do either for your early game - and then move to gravitic IF you want to - as somethin to explore some mid-late games...

This is a very nice idea. I'm excited to see where you take this mod!

@Intaka - thanks for that feedback regarding research speed - I hadn't realized that. Will observe if my current game grows to absurd research times by T7...!

[Intaka]

@mordachai Couldn't agree more about the impossibility of "balancing" all weapons. I wholeheartedly agree that the real goal is that there is some viability to all choices depending on strategy. No dead end lose traps. No single auto win only correct option.

The only point you made which I didn't necessarily agree without out of hand is that Large weapons aren't worth 2 Mediums. Because of Reactive reduction, double smaller damage is always less than single larger damage. This can actually be used as yet ANOTHER way to differentiate role for a weapon type. A weapon that needles many small hits, vs something like torpedoes that does single massive hits. Scott (of DW2 guide fame) did a youtube video ( https://youtu.be/AjIAHf2z1io ) demonstrating this effect in game called "Does Size Matter".

The central point I wanted to convey is that I am overjoyed you see the unfortunate vanilla inherited imbalances. It is by far the most complicated part of balancing. A Herculean task to be sure.

[mordachai]

Yes, there's some value to the alpha value of a large weapon - but not when it's simply 2x the dmg 1/2 of the time. that removes what? 5 pts of shield deflection and another 5 pts of armor deflection? Maybe double that tops, depending on the weapon's shield or armor bypass values?

Saving me 10 extra points of damage is not worth losing 2x the weapon's total value - those 10 pts, unless the weapon has a very, very low dmg output in the first place, and can barely top the deflection.

It's a critical point - I don't mean to disagree in principle - I'm just under the impression that the actual numbers involved are BS unless we're talking about ftr class weapons which can't - or can only barely - top the deflection to score any dmg at all.

Most medium weapons well exceed the deflection. But maybe I'm wrong about that? I haven't done a thorough analysis of it at various stages of the game - i.e. for various levels of armor and shields. But my general experience of playing is that ships have no trouble blowing each other up in relatively short order, for the most part... so I don't think that they're just-barely-exceeding-deflection (and I generally use all small & medium weapons + ftr + bmbrs).