Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

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StormingKiwi
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Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by StormingKiwi »

One of my military raid fleets has a mission: Attack [Mining Ship], strength 20.

There are higher-value targets available within the engagement range. For example, anything else on the list of targets I want them to attack. None of these mining stations has a strength comparable to the raid fleet.
Priorities - Mining Ship vs the rest.
Priorities - Mining Ship vs the rest.
Low Value Target.png (390.96 KiB) Viewed 876 times
The following screenshots highlight another odd military behaviour: Fixation on one target when multiple are available.

Sometimes, my fleets get too co-dependent.
Dogpiling one target
Dogpiling one target
Cooperation.png (166.64 KiB) Viewed 876 times
Demonstrating excessive underconfidence:
Inefficient allocation
Inefficient allocation
Superfluous Assignment.png (257.88 KiB) Viewed 876 times
Presumably, they are all targeting the closest target to their home base, as the five targets are located in 3 systems: Kubende, Tuydarea, and Dinnascar. None are in the nebula.
Closest First?
Closest First?
Locations - Kubende, Tuydarea, Dinnascar.jpg (221.54 KiB) Viewed 875 times
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MaximKI
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by MaximKI »

Hello StormingKiwi,

Could you please provide a save file demonstrating the issue?
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by StormingKiwi »

MaximKI wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:56 pm Hello StormingKiwi,

Could you please provide a save file demonstrating the issue?
Sure. The forum file upload limit is still less than the size of a DW2 save file, so please correct that.
The screenshots seem to be pretty explanatory to me. If anyone could explain the value a save file would add in this scenario, that would be appreciated too.

This is easy to reproduce. It's happened in every game version for a long while. Here are two screenshots from 1.0.8.3 demonstrating the same problem.
21 fleets attacking 1 mining station
21 fleets attacking 1 mining station
Ridiculous Assignment.png (270.53 KiB) Viewed 824 times
Lowest strength fleets
Lowest strength fleets
Lowest Defensive Fleets.png (164.83 KiB) Viewed 824 times
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Radamanthe
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by Radamanthe »

AFAICT, for every games I played since release, it's frequent that fleets suggest to attack lone ennemy freigthers, not only mining stations. In fact, I'm always on "suggest" in military policies, so I can hardly miss the wish... which I always decline, of course. No way an entire fleet wastes time and fuel to deal with traders, even with cargo full of Loros Fruits TBH (but destroying the originating mining station could be, at least, not so ridiculous).
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by StormingKiwi »

AKicebear wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:27 pm I think a zip of a save should work on the forum?
The compressed save is more than 10.4 MB. If improvement opportunities cannot be addressed without a save file 'proving' they exist, perhaps the forum's file upload limit should be larger.
Radamanthe wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:54 am AFAICT, for every games I played since release, it's frequent that fleets suggest to attack lone ennemy freigthers, not only mining stations. In fact, I'm always on "suggest" in military policies, so I can hardly miss the wish... which I always decline, of course. No way an entire fleet wastes time and fuel to deal with traders, even with cargo full of Loros Fruits TBH (but destroying the originating mining station could be, at least, not so ridiculous).
On that note:
Lone Enemy Freighter - Stout Obsession is in the foreground where the yellow nebulae is in the skybox.
Lone Enemy Freighter - Stout Obsession is in the foreground where the yellow nebulae is in the skybox.
Already Taken Care Of.png (1.8 MiB) Viewed 768 times
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Radamanthe
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by Radamanthe »

Suggestion: implement something to deal with advisors suggesting to kill flies with bazookas. Like first time, a warning, second time, a detox cure (potentially removing a drunk trait), third time, a war council. Plenty of ideas to have fun, just ask.
StormingKiwi
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by StormingKiwi »

Radamanthe wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:33 am Suggestion: implement something to deal with advisors suggesting to kill flies with bazookas. Like first time, a warning, second time, a detox cure (potentially removing a drunk trait), third time, a war council. Plenty of ideas to have fun, just ask.
There's an update to this story.

Sometime later (20 minutes or so), the advisor suggested another four attack missions.
The missions were:
Fleet 1 (strength >20,000) to attack Stout Obsession (strength 0) at Diltak 5.
Fleet 2 (strength >20,000) to attack Stout Obsession (strength 0) at Diltak 5.
Fleet 3 (strength >20,000) to attack Stout Obsession (strength 0) at Diltak 5.
Fleet 4 (strength >20,000) to attack Stout Obsession (strength 0) at Diltak 5.

Ship and system names seem familiar, don't they?

I dutifully checked out Diltak 5, to find a familiar scene, which I watched with amusement.

Stout Obsession was still being chased down by Revolt of Ilukas. Revolt of Ilukas had a small maxos blaster, medium maxos blaster, assault pods and hyper deny. I watched for some time as Stout Obsession moved to various coordinates in a circular pattern. Top speed reached was 68, turn rate of 9 degrees/s. Revolt of Ilukas followed for a long time, top speed reached was 102, turn rate of 9 degrees/s. Never quite coming into range.

Eventually, I lost interest and left them to it. I came back later when the next round of attack missions was suggested.

Revolt of Ilukas was still chasing Stout Obsession. While I watched, Revolt of Ilukas abruptly changed mission to refuel at Diltak 1 and hyperspaced away. Stout Obsession started charging its drives.

Amused at the foolishness of my ship captains and the extraordinary luck experienced by Stout Obsession, I thought that was the end.

But then...
How long was this going on for?
How long was this going on for?
A New Challenger Appears.png (942.41 KiB) Viewed 735 times
Mighty Enigma drops out of hyperspace and picks up exactly where Revolt of Ilukas left off. Mighty Enigma got lucky with range and managed to get assault pods on Stout Obsession. 75 assault strength was insufficient to overcome the surprising amount of defensive resistance, and boarders were repelled within a few seconds.

I believe Revolt of Ilukas was not the first escort to attempt this mission. There were several escorts in the Diltak system the whole time. The others were guarding the colony.

However, Mighty Enigma was the last - I manually changed the order to attack, rather than finding a suitable collection of ships to capture Stout Obsession.
Manual Attack Order
Manual Attack Order
Interdicted.png (1.09 MiB) Viewed 735 times
After this embarrassment, I pulled the assault pods off the escort design and dismissed myself for poor skills and general incompetence.


Is this how Distant Worlds Universe worked? I am sure that fleets used to attack distinct targets simultaneously, but solo ships would keep piling in until one target was overwhelmed.
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Erik Rutins
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by Erik Rutins »

StormingKiwi wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:50 am
AKicebear wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:27 pm I think a zip of a save should work on the forum?
The compressed save is more than 10.4 MB. If improvement opportunities cannot be addressed without a save file 'proving' they exist, perhaps the forum's file upload limit should be larger.
The save file would still be very helpful for us.

Please e-mail it to me at erikr@matrixgames.com or upload it to a site like wetransfer.com and post a download link here.

The forum is at its max download limit.
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StormingKiwi
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by StormingKiwi »

Erik Rutins wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:16 pm
StormingKiwi wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:50 am
AKicebear wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:27 pm I think a zip of a save should work on the forum?
The compressed save is more than 10.4 MB. If improvement opportunities cannot be addressed without a save file 'proving' they exist, perhaps the forum's file upload limit should be larger.
The save file would still be very helpful for us.

Please e-mail it to me at erikr@matrixgames.com or upload it to a site like wetransfer.com and post a download link here.

The forum is at its max download limit.
I'm annoyed that the staff supporting Distant Worlds 2 seem to be incapable of launching the game, are reluctant to take action until an excessive amount of evidence is provided, and will not facilitate the systems required for that evidence to be provided. Save files submitted for bug reports should not be on the forums anyway - it should be a dedicated support website where users submit a ticket and attach saves, with an upload limit for the files related to the expected size of the files generated by the game.

Nonetheless, I want to see this fixed. So I've taken the time and effort to reproduce this for you in a forum-friendly save the file by reducing the size of the galaxy etc.

Here is the work a paid employee could have done this week.

I have attached two zipped saves - one before targets were assigned by automation and one after.

5 Screenshots combined into 1.

1. Military automation settings.
2. Fleets before assignment.
3. Attack targets set.
4. Fleets after assignment.
5. Superflous Assignment
Superflous Assignment
Superflous Assignment
Automated Military Attacks Assignments.png (1.9 MiB) Viewed 615 times
10MiB Uploaders Fleet Assignment.zip
(5.92 MiB) Downloaded 4 times
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Nightskies
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by Nightskies »

This seems very obvious to me.

Your empire has identified only two threats belonging to this enemy, not counting the lone ship seen a year ago. The threat being engaged is the closer of the two.

Nothing is wrong here.
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by StormingKiwi »

Nightskies wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:38 am our empire has identified only two threats belonging to this enemy, not counting the lone ship seen a year ago. The threat being engaged is the closer of the two.

Nothing is wrong here.
No one is talking about threats. Don't confuse the issue by talking about something else. If you want to talk about threats, make your own thread and talk about that there.

The Galactopedia has one entry for Enemy Targets, and one entry for Dangerous Locations.
Galactopedia - Military Enemy Attack Targets.png
Galactopedia - Military Enemy Attack Targets.png (159.89 KiB) Viewed 567 times
Galactopedia - Military Dangerous Locations.png
Galactopedia - Military Dangerous Locations.png (214.52 KiB) Viewed 567 times
Your empire has identified only two (enemy targets) belonging to this enemy, not counting the lone ship seen a year ago.
I count five targets on the list of enemy targets. As is clearly visible in the screenshots provided.
The (enemy target) being engaged is the closer of the two.
Superfluous: "unnecessary, especially through being more than enough."
The issue is: Three fleets do not all need to go and attack the same target when one of them is enough.
1 can attack the first closest target.
2 can attack the second closest target.
3 can attack the third closest target.
and so on.
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Nightskies
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by Nightskies »

You seem confused to me.

Automated fleets select a threat, not targets. I am talking about threats because that is how automated fleets function. In selecting which threat they'll attack, proximity is a huge factor. It is no surprise that of the two threats the fleets would attack on their own, it was the closer for all three fleets.

This is neither erroneous nor undesirable in the big picture. We do not want efficient AI beyond basic function. That would be an entirely different discussion, and a big one. Believe me on this.

Ah, and regarding the other threats: those two are the big ones, again, obvious to me why they were not selected. I did not see reason to even discuss the other threats.
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by StormingKiwi »

Nightskies wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:12 pm This is neither erroneous nor undesirable in the big picture. We do not want efficient AI beyond basic function. That would be an entirely different discussion, and a big one. Believe me on this.
Even if it were true that fleets attack "threats", not "targets", it is not desirable to allocate every fleet in range to attack one threat that one fleet could manage. What happens if another "threat" appears in the Area of Operations?

As construction ships do not get overallocated to construction projects, there is a precedent for multiple units to be allocated to multiple missions without unnecessary overlap.

Now, what does Galactopedia have to say?
(Because you have not demonstrated you read either the OP or screenshotted Galactopedia entries, I have copied and pasted these as text)
Nightskies wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:12 pm You seem confused to me.

Automated fleets select a threat, not targets. I am talking about threats because that is how automated fleets function.

In selecting which threat they'll attack, proximity is a huge factor. It is no surprise that of the two threats the fleets would attack on their own, it was the closer for all three fleets.
1. There is a screen to view attack targets.
2. There is a button to queue an attack against an attack target.
3. There is a tooltip that says such and such fleet is attacking an attack target.

For your comprehension: the problem is that the game is not functioning as it is intended to function. I am not interested in condescending explanations of "how the game actually works" - "how the game actually works" is not how the game was designed to work and not how the documentation says the game works.

I know that attack targets are allocated in order of nearest proximity. That was stated in the OP. That's not the problem.

The problem is the inappropriate allocation of fleets to attack targets.

It is not true that Automated Fleets select a threat, not a target. If I adjust the automated postures to give each fleet an attack point, then the fleets with an attack point will be assigned to attack their Virgissu system attack points that do not appear on the 'dangerous locations' list, not the threats outside the system that do. However, if the player is required to allocate an attack point manually for each fleet so that the automation queues an attack, they may as well turn that automation off.

Galactopedia > Fleets wrote: Fleets allow you to group a number of military ships together and assign missions to the entire group. This is useful for coordinating large attacks on enemy targets.

They have a home base that defines their center of operations. They also have an engagement range that defines the area they will engage enemy targets, in a radius out from their home base.

Your automated fleets will respond to intercept enemy attacks when there are insufficient forces to defend the target. The nearest available automated fleet will travel to the attack location and defend the target.

There are five types of fleets:
[ULI]Attack: large fleets for major assaults against enemy targets like colonies or spaceports[/ULI]
[ULI]Defense: used to guard important locations, and respond to enemy attacks within range[/ULI]
[ULI]Raid: smaller fleets used to attack smaller targets like bases and other small fleets[/ULI]
[ULI]Invasion: used to land lots of troops when invading enemy colonies[/ULI]
[ULI]Manual: manually controlled fleet[/ULI]

[H3]Creating New Fleets[/H3]
You can create a new fleet in a number of different ways:
[ULI]select multiple military ships in the main view by drag-selecting with the left mouse button held down or by ctrl-clicking each ship. Then click the 'Create New Fleet' button under the Selection Panel[/ULI]
[ULI]select multiple ships in the Military Ships list by ctrl- and shift-clicking ships in the list. Then click the 'Create New Fleet' button under the Selection Panel[/ULI]
[ULI]in the Fleet Templates screen, select the desired template and then click either the 'Form new fleet' or 'Build new fleet' buttons at the right[/ULI]

You can also add individual ships to an existing fleet by selecting the ship and clicking the 'Join ship to fleet' button under the Selection Panel. This will popup a list of all fleets that can be joined. Select the fleet you want the ship to join by clicking on it from the list.

[H3]Tactical Settings[/H3]
Fleets have a full array of tactical settings that fine-tune how they operate. Open the tactical settings screen by selecting the fleet and clicking the 'Set Tactics' button at the far-right under the Selection Panel.

Note that individual ships within a fleet also have their own tactical settings. You can tweak how the fleet and ship tactics interact in the section 'Fleet Ships - Tactical Overrides'.

[H3]Fleet Engagement Range[/H3]
Engagement Range is a very important fleet tactical setting. Using this you can control how far fleets will respond to threats.

Defense fleets will defend their home base and also respond to enemy attacks against any of our colonies or bases within its Engagement Range.

Attack, Raid and Invasion fleets will attack their attack point and then any other enemy target within their Engagement Range. They will also respond to any threats or dangerous locations within the Engagement Range from their home base.

[H3]Selecting fleets[/H3]
There are four ways to select a fleet:
[ULI]when zoomed out to system-level or greater your fleets appear as an large triangular icon with striped edges. Click the fleet icon to select it[/ULI]
[ULI]when zoomed in to location-level, you can double-click any ship in the fleet to select the entire fleet[/ULI]
[ULI]using the Control Center, open the Fleets list (shift-F11) and click the desired fleet[/ULI]
[ULI]cycle all of your fleets by repeatedly pressing the F key[/ULI]

When a fleet is selected you can assign missions to it in the same way you would assign missions to a single ship.

[H3]Setting a Home Base[/H3]
A fleet's home base is their center of operations. They will return here when they are not carrying out a mission.

The home base should have sufficient fuel for the entire fleet. Good candidates are spaceports, large colonies, or a fuel mining station. When you select a new fleet home base, stock levels will automatically order more fuel at the location.

To set a fleet’s home base:
[OLI]select the fleet[/OLI]
[OLI]right-click and hold on the location of the new home base, which will popup a menu[/OLI]
[OLI]click the menu option 'Set home base for (Fleet Name) to (Location)'[/OLI]

[H3]Setting an Attack Point[/H3]
Fleet attack points are the initial attack targets when a war begins with another empire.

This allows you to predefine your war attack plan, pre-positioning your fleets prior to the commencement of hostilities. When the war begins, your fleets will automatically head towards their attack points.

To set a fleet attack point:
[OLI]select the fleet[/OLI]
[OLI]right-click and hold on the location for the attack point (should be a foreign base or colony), which will popup a menu[/OLI]
[OLI]click the menu option 'Set attack point for (Fleet Name) to (Location)'[/OLI]
Galactopedia > Military - Enemy Targets wrote: This screen lists known enemy targets that you can attack with your fleets. These include fixed targets like enemy bases (e.g. pirate bases) and colonies. It also includes enemy fleets for which we know the current location.

When zoomed out to the galaxy- or system-level the enemy targets are highlighted on the map. Hovering over an item in the list will ping the location on the map. Clicking the item will select it's location. Double-clicking the item will move the view to that location.

Each list item shows the known enemy strength at the target location. For enemy bases it also shows the current health level of the target.

[H3]Defending Strength[/H3]
For enemy colonies it shows the known defending troop strength. Note that this can be an estimate when the colony is not directly visible, so caution is needed when considering whether to invade.

[H3]Queuing Attacks[/H3]
The button at the right allows you to queue an attack against the target. When the next appropriate fleet becomes available it will assign an attack mission against the target. You can click the button again to cancel the attack.

If you cannot attack the target the Queue button will be disabled. A tooltip on the button will explain why you cannot attack.
Galactopedia > Military - Dangerous Locations wrote:
Some locations are dangerous because they have known hostile threats. These threats usually include mobile targets like pirate ships and deadly space creatures. These threats often move between locations, so this information is transitory and is updated often.

Civilian ships will not travel to a location which has hostile threats present. This means that construction ships will not build bases there. Exploration ships will not explore further there. It also means that mining ships will not mine there, nor will freighters pick up or deliver cargo from there.

[H3]Dangerous Locations List[/H3]
This screen lists dangerous locations that have known hostile threats. Check the sort and filter options at the top of the panel. You can filter by each threat type, including specific types of space creature.

When zoomed out to the galaxy- or system-level the dangerous locations are highlighted on the map. System and Location badges also indicate dangerous location using the red lightning bolt icon. Hovering over an item in the list will ping the location on the map. Clicking the item will select it's location. Double-clicking the item will move the view to that location.

Each list item shows the major threat at the location along with the total hostile strength. It also indicates when this information was last updated, and thus how accurate it is.

[H3]Queuing Investigation[/H3]
The button at the right allows you to queue an investigation and clearance of the dangerous location. When the next appropriate fleet becomes available it will move to the location and clear out any threats it finds there. You can click the button again to cancel the investigation.

If you cannot investigate the location the Queue button will be disabled. A tooltip on the button will explain why you cannot investigate.
Hope that helps clear up your lack of understanding.



This exchange is a clear example of why saves for bug reports should not be uploaded to a public forum.
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Nightskies
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by Nightskies »

The Galactopedia does not state how automated fleets allocate themselves against threats or targets at any point. You have a misconception (*again*). Your example posted is invalid, as I've said, the matter of fleets selecting targets is functioning as per the threat list, properly. You believe this to be horrible, but it isn't. Think about the response the AI will have to these attacks, and how it will play out. A battle between warships will take place at the mining station, if the Boskara have ships to battle with. The AI is not meant to be a strategic master, at all. It just needs to be good enough to conduct wars. In this, it does so.

The target list is there for your convenience. That's it. Automated fleets, again, select threats as targets. This is easy to understand! You wish for them to divy themselves to the near and far targets, but why should they? Rhetorical question. They don't need to. They prioritize nearby targets. Extra info; raid fleets are especially guilty of targeting the same thing. I wonder if you know or can figure out why? THAT is something worthy of being fixed- but it has been addressed already, the method is simple. The AI makes fewer raid fleets. Not the best fix, but it works.

You of all people, APhoenix, should know that we all here, especially me, understands that fleets will engage their Attack Point in addition to threats. Once again you're attempting to discredit me with an invalidation argument, and it sickens me. I'm trying to talk to YOU, and you turn and talk to the audience in an attempt to make me look wrong. What you're claiming in this thread is unworthy of 'fixing', hence my persistence in face of your ridiculous arguments and personal attacks. Like some of the other things you bring up, it simply functions in a way you don't personally like.

Just because one overgeneralized statement you made about capital ships being useless in AI War led to the developer changing ONE thing about ONE kind of capital ship doesn't mean you're a patron of balance and how games should work. Now, I do understand this game pretty well, and I don't let my conclusions be clouded by preconceptions of how things should work according to the glorious near-genius of Nightskies. (sarcasm)

Fleets do not excessively assign themselves to the same target. Want to discuss this? Without belittling each other? I'm game.
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by frankycl »

Nightskies wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:12 pm (...)
We do not want efficient AI beyond basic function. That would be an entirely different discussion, and a big one. Believe me on this.
Hm - why do say this ? - There were a lot of complaints/discussions about the AI being too dumb (or the game being too easy because of this). :|
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Nightskies
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by Nightskies »

While I was kiiinda hoping not to get much into that discussion merely because of the scope of it and how biased the reality of it is toward developers, I'll try to tackle it in a new topic. I'll need some time.
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by frankycl »

Nightskies wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:16 pm While I was kiiinda hoping not to get much into that discussion merely because of the scope of it and how biased the reality of it is toward developers, I'll try to tackle it in a new topic. I'll need some time.
But why / what "scope" ? - I/we are not talking about improving the whole AI-system... - only for some tweaks here or there that would improve a little aspect / game-mechanic. ;)
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by Nightskies »

Well, short version of why they stick to nearby targets as a priority: it looks/feels awful in a big war otherwise. Much of the AI behavior, as far as I can tell, was largely shaped in observation of how the AI played against itself. By limiting engagements more toward the 'front', it feels more like a pitched war between two empires, gradually pushing one way or another, with one empire typically making a big push for the other's capital at or near the onset of a war.

Designing the AI for optimization isn't generally a good idea. In this case, the player may rely on the AI, and clearly be frustrated that it isn't being smart. However, the alternative (optimal play) feels alien. The way it is, is the superior option. Tweaks, of course, can be made, but careful consideration should be made as to the end result.

In any case, the first-time player's experience is the prime consideration when it comes to AI.
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Re: Fleet Attack Issues - Low Value Targets, Superfluous Assignment

Post by frankycl »

Nightskies wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:18 pm Designing the AI for optimization isn't generally a good idea. In this case, the player may rely on the AI, and clearly be frustrated that it isn't being smart. However, the alternative (optimal play) feels alien.(...)
In any case, the first-time player's experience is the prime consideration when it comes to AI.
Yes, I think all what you are saying is not wrong, but it doesn't explain why the AI couldn't be a bit more "alien" for the players that would appreciate a bit more of a challenge (at least in actual space-battles and in higher difficulty-settings) - bsds: they ARE aliens - so, why shouldn't they act a bit more alien ? :lol:

Joking aside - first-time players wouldn't choose a high difficulty anyway, I think - or if they do it wouldn't be too bad to show them that they should maybe try an easier setting first. ;)
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