[1.0.7.3] PARTIALLY solved & more / [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

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Thineboot
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[1.0.7.3] PARTIALLY solved & more / [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by Thineboot »

Since Erik posted in Beta 1.0.6.9 Random Tech Tree Many missing Techs
ERutins; wrote:
Dray Prescot; wrote:Ok, I think I see the problem, I and probably many Players thought that Random Paths meant that we could still get to all of the old Techs as before, but we did not know what path(s) we had to take to get there to those Techs.

Your version of Random Paths includes the more drastic possibility (likelyhood) that some Empires will lose access to certain Techs, i.e. they will lose a path needed to get to it/them, while other Empires will still have access to that Tech, via the new path structure. and the Empires missing that Tech had to acquire it somehow: Exploration, Events, or Trading, Stealing, or capturing a Colony from an Empire that had that missing Tech.

And different Empires would probably be missing different Techs from each other.
That's correct, that pretty much sums up the initial design.
ERutins; wrote:
TheMac; wrote:If random techs mean "You won't receive all the techs that you would if choosing a fixed tech tree and that you'll be putting yourself at a considerable disadvantage", then maybe communicating that to the player in the form of an tooltip or other warning would prevent the appropriate surprise and dismay expressed in this thread.
Sure, we can expand the tooltip on galaxy setup as well. Note that if you choose random it also applies to the AI empires, so you are not really putting yourself at a considerable disadvantage, you're just accepting that in some areas you will need means other than just research to advance your tech.

and I knew that you could not steal invisible tech before, I gave it a try. And yes, now you can steal tech that doesn't show up in your random tech tree. But it doesn't show up after being stolen either. In the end you can not research any tech that wasn't in your tech tree in the first place even when you get access to it by stealing it. I haven't test trading tech as this takes much more time than stealing it from a pirate. And the stealing part is easy to replicate.

Since this works with tech you get through events it should be possible to fix this, too.
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Re: [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by Erik Rutins »

Thineboot wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:30 pm and I knew that you could not steal invisible tech before, I gave it a try. And yes, now you can steal tech that doesn't show up in your random tech tree. But it doesn't show up after being stolen either.
Hm, thanks for that report. That's still not working as intended. Once you have the project (or part of it), it should appear in your tech tree.
In the end you can not research any tech that wasn't in your tech tree in the first place even when you get access to it by stealing it. I haven't test trading tech as this takes much more time than stealing it from a pirate. And the stealing part is easy to replicate.
The only limitation should be that it doesn't (currently) unlock new paths from it, but it should appear and be possible to complete researching it once you have stolen it (even if not completed).
Erik Rutins
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Re: [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by rxnnxs »

Is there a place where you describe the layout/algorythm/logic of the random research?

I mean, if you have a path/branch layed out, you start from it from level 0.
If you make it random, there could also be two or more possibilities (I think this is as some mentioned it in the steam thread) how the research from there goes on.

The one way is, you get a tech always in a random way.
So when your research in weapons is at level 3, you could possibly get some tech 3 weapon by random event/research.
Now if you then have that, you "might" be able to research also the lower levels or do not get them at all OR get them instantly.
You COULD or NOT have the ability to research the upgoing branch.

Or it is again, for level 4 and all the other research fields and levels ALWAYS a random new dice.
The way I read it in the thread concerning SEED, is all precalculated and hidden but already layed out. Or is there the tech tree even if it is the same seed, not layed out at the beginning/galaxy creation, but while you are doing research in game time? So even after later game and loading a save, the game could split, regarding research tree, into different directions?
How is this behaving regarding events, locations and such. Is this all layed out from the beginning, or is it a dice roll just when you get the message pop up?

Lets see it as other games, i.e. MOO that has no tech tree but always new weapon abilities -> there is no branch, but always a new dice roll what you get.
The better your race is in inventing and such, the higher the probability is you get that or even get more than one branch.

So is there any layout how that random tech is supposed to work?
Therefore we could better understand the mechanic behind it and what is intended and what is not.

So the way if there are branches or not at all decides about that you can have lasers, but not a laser lafette or a micro version. Others could have that, but not the level one.
Sure this would mean also, that every level, even the lowest, has also some behavior that makes it useable still in late game. So not useless but only specialized for some action, like laser level 1 is later still able to shoot down missiles instead of level one spaceships.
Or my race has a very bad engine and high fuel usage, but therefore a high capacity tank..
Or saying it different: I can not have no "bad" or "good" level "X" stuff at all, but they are all quite equal if we only have lets say 80% of level one research stuff.
We have to adapt with our strategies. The one race has to go in to fight, the other has to take the distance, the other has to outnumber the enemy.

And sure, the next step would be the HARD random research, where it is not equilibrium, but "fate" if your empire just sucks and has all the "bad" stuff that means you have disadvantage. I.e. the level 1laser is not as good in DPS and even the range is smaller as a plasma weapon level 1 the enemy has, and he does not even has a better generator to compensate.

ok, just my 2 cents.
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Re: [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by William Ameling »

Because of Thineboot's attempt to steal a Hidden or Invisible Tech on a Random Tech Tree (see earlier messages above)

I decided to test stealing a Hidden or Invisible Tech using the normal fixed (i.e. NON Random) Tech Tree. As a Human Empire.

My target was Hybrid Plasma Weapons Tech, which in the Boskara Tech Tree is a Tier 1 Tech that comes off of Early Pulse Weapons Tech Tier 0. But it does not appear in the Human Tech Tree. But I could see it as a Tech that the Boskara Hegemony and a Boskaran Pirate Faction had.

I got one successful Steal Tech Spy Mission result and I still did not see even a partial result in the Tech Tree.

I decided to keep trying to Steal Hybrid Plasma Weapons Tech from the Boskara Hegemony (an AI Empire) and a Boskaran Pirate Faction.

After 3 successful Steal Tech Spy Mission results, I got a DW2 message that I had gotten Hybrid Plasma Weapons Tech.

Yet I still could NOT see that Tech in my Tech Tree.

I decided to make one last check and tried to design a new Frigate, and when I did so, I found that Plasma Blaster (M) and Plasma Blaster (S) were now AVAILABLE to be put in a new ship design.

So even though I had stolen a Race Special Tech that was Hidden on my Tech Tree and remained Hidden on my Tech Tree,
I was now able to use the Plasma Blasters as weapons on my ships.

I expect/assume that Hidden or Missing or Invisible Techs on the Random Tech Tree will behave in a similar manner. After acquiring them in some manner, such as Stealing them, We may NOT see the Tech in our Tech Tree, but we can still put them in a ship design, or build Planetary Facilities, etc.,depending on what that Hidden Tech has in it.

But we will be unable to research those Hidden Techs, and probably unable to research Hidden Techs that come off of them.

ERutins, said in a response on the Steam Forum, that the new 1.0.7.1 Beta coming out today (9-16-2022)would correct this.
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Re: [1.0.7.1] SOLVED / [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by Thineboot »

Once you have successfully finish a single spy mission you can also research this new, former hidden tech.
researchable
researchable
image_2022-09-18_122825111.png (205.59 KiB) Viewed 853 times

Side note @ERutins: the first tech the spies went after was
Pulsed Wave Weapon
Pulsed Wave Weapon
image_2022-09-18_122841186.png (359.39 KiB) Viewed 853 times
The tech itself has no images and the pirates I've stolen it from were no Wekkarus. In the end they are pirates, but just in case this isn't intended...
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Re: [1.0.7.1] PARTIALLY solved / [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by Thineboot »

A nap later I had to go back.

You can only Steal INVISIBLE Research Information. Once one spy was successful you can only try to research it yourself.

spy
spy
image_2022-09-18_223544099.png (1.28 MiB) Viewed 833 times

Same is true for the above mentioned Pulsed Wave Weapons, you neither can send more spies or research it.
Actual workaround: send a whole bunch of spies at the same time.


At the moment there are four Race-specific Story Events specific Pirate factions in the game: Empires added for Story Events

[1.0.6.9]: all are not/added by the Race-specific Story Events off/on button.
[1.0.7.1]: only those needed for active races in the game are added.

still broken?
still broken?
image_2022-09-18_224332126.png (1.66 MiB) Viewed 833 times

To test what was fixed and what is still broken needs either a very dedicated soul who runs several tests or a bit more information by Erik and/or Elliot.
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Re: [1.0.7.3] PARTIALLY solved & more / [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by Thineboot »

[1.0.7.3]
Erik Rutins wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:00 pm [...]
RESEARCH
- fixed bug where research projects with fallback paths were sometimes not appearing on tech tree when should have
- now exclude race-specific tech from non-playable races when stealing or trading tech, or acquiring through other means (e.g. colony conquest)
[...]
- tweaked which research projects are available for trade and stealing (spy missions): spies can now perform repeated steal tech missions for same project even when visible to their empire
[...]
It worked with Efficient Energy Conversion. The next tech, Pure Energy Conversion, has only an 80% chance to appear in the tree - and it didn't.
It worked with Enhanced Research. The next tech, Advanced Research, has only an 75% chance to appear in the tree - and it didn't.
That's a 5% ( (1-0.8) * (1-0.75) = 0.2 * 0.25 = 0.05 ) chance that neither would appear. So it's possible but unlikely, that both are missing. I can only test so far, and at some point player based testing reaches it's limits...


What's disturbing is, that after Research Labs everything becomes a game of hidden chances. Since research is based on research tech I can't fathom why access to this particular tech field is based on pure luck.



During the test the targeted Liberated of the Stars were destroyed:
Mission into nowhere
Mission into nowhere
image_2022-09-23_202754332.png (4.21 MiB) Viewed 780 times
But the spies kept stealing from a none existent Empire (pirate faction). At least the game reacted in a forgiving way, and sent them home - after their mission into nowhere.



Due to this destruction of their one and only base, I reloaded and gave them another base to survive the automatic attack. The base was destroyed and I remembered the Ambassador, who was placed there to support the incoming spies:

Escape Pod: phone home
Escape Pod: phone home
image_2022-09-23_204537410.png (1.24 MiB) Viewed 780 times
Now I know why the attacking fleet forgot their own Ambassador in his Escape Pod. There was no need to rescue him as he could just order a standard transport...



I had to reload a bunch of times since the spies were all fresh and the chances, well, let's say they had a chance to succeed. But what happens to captured spies in unfriendly territory?
Purged spy
Purged spy
image_2022-09-23_203437950.png (300.27 KiB) Viewed 780 times
There is not even a picture is the books. They are the forgotten heroes - so far there are no heroines - in a distant universe...

Edit 2: playable vs player => playable(?), not player
Last edited by Thineboot on Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [1.0.7.3] PARTIALLY solved & more / [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by Erik Rutins »

Thineboot wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:01 pm It worked with Efficient Energy Conversion. The next tech, Pure Energy Conversion, has only an 80% chance to appear in the tree - and it didn't.
It worked with Enhanced Research. The next tech, Advanced Research, has only an 75% chance to appear in the tree - and it didn't.
That's a 5% ( (1-0.8) * (1-0.75) = 0.2 * 0.25 = 0.05 ) chance that neither would appear. So it's possible but unlikely, that both are missing. I can only test so far, and at some point player based testing reaches it's limits...
If a previous tech path is broken, the following ones will not appear. It just requires that first 80% or 75% to fail and the tree is broken there.
During the test the targeted Liberated of the Stars were destroyed:
image_2022-09-23_202754332.png
But the spies kept stealing from a none existent Empire (pirate faction). At least the game reacted in a forgiving way, and sent them home - after their mission into nowhere.
This is something we should improve. Do you happen to have a save showing them still doing their missions after the faction was destroyed?
Due to this destruction of their one and only base, I reloaded and gave them another base to survive the automatic attack. The base was destroyed and I remembered the Ambassador, who was placed there to support the incoming spies:
When you say you gave them another base, you mean with the editor?

The second base had your ambassador on it, or the first one? I'm not entirely clear. He should have been picked up.
I had to reload a bunch of times since the spies were all fresh and the chances, well, let's say they had a chance to succeed. But what happens to captured spies in unfriendly territory?
image_2022-09-23_203437950.png
There is not even a picture is the books. They are the forgotten heroes - so far there are no heroines - in a distant universe...
That's just the message type icon, it's not supposed to show the character.
Erik Rutins
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Re: [1.0.7.3] PARTIALLY solved & more / [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by Thineboot »

Erik Rutins wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:07 pm
Thineboot wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:01 pm It worked with Efficient Energy Conversion. The next tech, Pure Energy Conversion, has only an 80% chance to appear in the tree - and it didn't.
It worked with Enhanced Research. The next tech, Advanced Research, has only an 75% chance to appear in the tree - and it didn't.
That's a 5% ( (1-0.8) * (1-0.75) = 0.2 * 0.25 = 0.05 ) chance that neither would appear. So it's possible but unlikely, that both are missing. I can only test so far, and at some point player based testing reaches it's limits...
If a previous tech path is broken, the following ones will not appear. It just requires that first 80% or 75% to fail and the tree is broken there.
That's very unfortunate, especially when it comes to a broken research tech path, even more with hidden tree...
During the test the targeted Liberated of the Stars were destroyed:
image_2022-09-23_202754332.png
But the spies kept stealing from a none existent Empire (pirate faction). At least the game reacted in a forgiving way, and sent them home - after their mission into nowhere.
This is something we should improve. Do you happen to have a save showing them still doing their missions after the faction was destroyed?
This is a save before the 8th Fleet arrived:
Autosave3.7z
Before arrival of 8th Fleet
(1.82 MiB) Downloaded 5 times
Double click on the (only) ambassador.
Check the active spies.
Unpause and watch the fast end of their only base.
Ambassador in Escape Pod, ships leave, spies keep spying.
Due to this destruction of their one and only base, I reloaded and gave them another base to survive the automatic attack. The base was destroyed and I remembered the Ambassador, who was placed there to support the incoming spies:
When you say you gave them another base, you mean with the editor?

The second base had your ambassador on it, or the first one? I'm not entirely clear. He should have been picked up.
The Ambassador was sent to their original base and ended up in an Escape Pod when my automated fleets had destroyed the base.
I reloaded before the base went down and using the Game Editor I added a second SSP for them on the far side of the galaxy at Antar 4 (East South East). This way I could finish the stealing of Enhanced Research.
The original, now first base was again destroyed and the Ambassador ended up in an Escape Pod, again.
Sreloor Territory - Human - 2759-04-09.7z
Ambassador in Escape Pod
(1.83 MiB) Downloaded 5 times
I had to reload a bunch of times since the spies were all fresh and the chances, well, let's say they had a chance to succeed. But what happens to captured spies in unfriendly territory?
image_2022-09-23_203437950.png
There is not even a picture is the books. They are the forgotten heroes - so far there are no heroines - in a distant universe...
That's just the message type icon, it's not supposed to show the character.
That's ok, he's dust or maybe ended in a converter... is there known cannibalism among pirates? Maybe it's just referring to Soylent White, a new protein bar created by the soon to be liberated Liberated of the Stars, who knows ;)
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Re: [1.0.7.3] PARTIALLY solved & more / [1.0.6.9] Random Tech Tree: Invisible stolen Tech

Post by Thineboot »

[1.0.7.3]
Erik Rutins wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:00 pm [...]
RESEARCH
[...]
- now exclude race-specific tech from non-playable races when stealing or trading tech, or acquiring through other means (e.g. colony conquest)
[...]
Next test was to check whether you can steal from other races their race-specific techs.


Started with Fixed Research Tree on level 3 and all other races at level 7 and Defense Pact:
Defense Pact
Defense Pact
image_2022-09-25_145457397.png (359.05 KiB) Viewed 720 times
As expected Defense Pact includes every other treaty, too - or so it seemed.
My Teekan knows any other empire and has a Defense Pact as well as a Protection Agreement, which seems a bit odd...
Defense Pact (125 credits per month)
Defense Pact (125 credits per month)
image_2022-09-25_145059546.png (254.91 KiB) Viewed 720 times
While I don't mind the inclusion of "lesser" treaties, note the Restricted Trade Agreement instead of a Free Trade Agreement. And Operations Map Sharing is also not present.


Back to the test:
race-specific tech from playable races
race-specific tech from playable races
image_2022-09-25_151023555.png (931.9 KiB) Viewed 720 times
Seems I was wrong, you can steal race-specific tech from playable races and only race-specific tech from non-playable races are excluded or simply put, they are not available at all, are they?
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