Monty Had a Good Plan!

[Fred Sanford]

Grenadier Guards make contact with the 1st Airborne, day 4 @ 1924. 4th AL Bde is making a supporting attack from the north to (vainly most likely) try to reopen supply lines to the 1st AL Bde and 1st Para Bde.

[Phoenix100]

Superb, Fred. Well done! Need more info though! To help me, since I've never been anywhere near getting through by day 4....(at least, not until playing with the latest updates...)
1.Is it the default stock unmodded scenario with realistic delay and historical settings?
2.Supply. How come all those Arnhem paras have not surrendered through lack of supply, as happened historically and as used to happen to me every time (before the latest updates)? Have they been fiercely and constantly engaged (as always used to happen), or have you seen - as have I, playing this scenario with latest updates - a kind of lassitude affecting the Axis AI, so that the defenders haven't run out of supply because they haven't had to actually fight? Keeping those defenders in supply was always the difficult thing in this scenario.
3. How did you get through Nijmegan so quickly? Did the 82AB manage to seize the road bridge during the first two days and establish a decent bridgehead? If so, again, did you find that it came under massed, ferocious attack (again, as always used to happen) or were your paras more or less left sitting there? I'm interested in whether it's changes to AI behaviour that have made such one time unthinkable results possible (even if you are the best commander out there!)
4. Your 82DZs and SEPS - did they come under sustained attack, or not?

I have a feeling that since the latest updates we need to take a look at the VPs and vic locs for the Axis, to promote a greater and more determined concentration of resources. I am just finishing this scenario and have also flipped history on its head, but only because the AI seemed to sit back and let me, which never seemed to happen previously. Any more info would be appreciated.

[Fred Sanford]

The AI does seem to lack aggressiveness now- 1st AB should have been in bigger trouble, but I was able to keep supply to the forces in Arnhem until the late supply run on day 3 started getting intercepted. That said, I've won this on previous stock versions as well. Two main points to my strategy- (1) north 'end run' into/around Arnhem and most importantly Velp, and (2) screw the DZ's and concentrate on the main objectives.

Nijmegen was attacked by all 3 bns of the 508th and one bn of the 505th. I left 2/505 in Grossbeek after it took it on day one, and sent another bn of the 505th to Mook, with one company to just outside the town right on the map edge. I pretty much ceded the drop zones and Groosebeek heights to concentrate on Nijmegen. Still, the 82nd had trouble with taking Nijmegen until XXX Corp showed up.

The key, however, is blocking the SS coming in from the northeast of Arnhem via the town of Velp. I took all of the motorized units in the 1st AB- about a half dozen AT troop, 9 Engineer Coy, and the recon company on an end run around the north of Arnhem to take up blocking positions in Velp. They fight a delaying action while the 1st AL brigade also loops north and attacks into Arnhem from the north. In fact, I move the entire logistical base of the 1st AB to the woods north of Arnhem, and pretty much abandon the drop zones, except for a delaying screen. If the 1st AB can hold the SS for a few days from reinforcing Nijmegen, then you can get XXX Corp through Nijmegen fairly quickly.

[rfrizz]

I have to respectfully disagree about the plan being good.

Historically, they probably figured that a failure wouldn't set things back too much, and the prospect of destroying Germany so quickly had to be irresistible.

The flaw? Too many points of failure. But I have to admit that the risk/benefit evaluation may have made the gamble worth rolling the dice. Risk is one of war's many facets.

[Phoenix100]

Thanks Fred. Your plan was based on rather better intelligence than was available to Monty (or to you, if you hadn't already played it through a few times, I guess), though slightly more was available to his planners, he still wouldn't have known that a block at Velp would have stalled the weight of force that would be ranged against him. Even so, that wouldn't have been enough historically, I fancy. You get the same result, more or less, without acting on the 'black' intelligence, if you just rush to seal off the Arnhem highway crossing by late afternoon (before the SS gets there). They will then either divert and have to use a ferry crossing to get to Nijmegan, or mass, attack and destroy your bridgehead. The latter, historically, and in the past with this game too, but I think now the engine might be in danger of sitting back on those objectives it can get without a fight like that. I think for your Arnhem units to remain in supply so long they can't have been fighting very much, no? I'm used to playing this scenario and being cut off by midnight day 1. If those forces are then fiercely engaged then their ammo is gone in at most 8 hours. And if you've left your SEPs/DZs unguarded (not to mention the long, strung out routes between) then the AI ought to find it easy to cut you off.

Be good to see a more detailed, step by step AAR of how you achieve this result by day 4. You're obviously doing something I am ignorant of, or the AI is different (but if, as you've said, you got the same result under previous iterations of the engine, then maybe it can't be that, and can only be my inability versus your own skill....[:)])

[Fred Sanford]

rfizz- I wasn't serious about it being a good plan. Like phoenix says, to win you have to make use of knowledge about the incoming SS that the British wouldn't have had. I still like winning, though.

It does seem as though the latest patch AI isn't as aggressive. At least in this scenario. I opened the scenario in the editor afterwards, and Arnhem bridge is a 'high' AI priority, the only one I saw with that rating. I've noticed that none of the German regiment-sized units have a base, there's only division and corps bases that have to be over-worked. I wonder if supply isn't getting to the German troops- at the end of the scenario they were all highly fatigued.

[Arjuna]

FYI the priority value set for an objective in the ScenMaker is only used if it's an AI objective -= ie it has no victory points assigned. There are VPs assigned to the Arnhem Hwy Bridge North objective. So the high priority doesn't factor. The objective however, is the only one with a total of 15,000 VPs assigned. SO it is the most important objective. But there are a number of other that have pretty high VPs assigned too, like the Arnhem Hvy bridge south, Nijmegen Bridge and town centre (all 10,000 VPs). Feel free to clone the scenario and adjust the VPs assigned and see if this produces the desired effect.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: rfrizz

I have to respectfully disagree about the plan being good.

Historically, they probably figured that a failure wouldn't set things back too much, and the prospect of destroying Germany so quickly had to be irresistible.

The flaw? Too many points of failure ...

... any of which fails the entire operation.

Market Garden reminded me of those old series circuit Christmas tree lights: if one (bridge) is out, the entire circuit won't work.

[Phoenix100]

Cheers, Dave. I think that's all it is, probably. I'm sure if I tweak it so that the Axis ONLY has to chase the two highway bridges then that will be the end of notions of a passive AI.

[dazkaz15]

Well played Fred [&o]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Market Garden reminded me of those old series circuit Christmas tree lights: if one (bridge) is out, the entire circuit won't work.

I remember having to do them damn lights every year as Christmas, after my granddad had dragged them out of the attic, when I was a lad.
I could never understand how they worked when we put them away, but never did when we got them back out a year later.

We used to spend hours taking out every bulb, and replacing it to see if it was the blown one.
It was nearly always the last one, no matter which end you started, or even if you started in the middle [:'(]

Still we had great fun doing it.
I still miss the old bugger, and he died years ago now [:(]

[Fred Sanford]

Here's some shots showing my initial orders. Game time is D1 @ 1400, so all the first day's airborne landings are in and initial orders have been given.

Arnhem:
1 Para Bde: 1st & 3rd Bn's and the Engr Coy are ordered to attack the Osterbeek area. Once that's done they will prepare to seize the RR bridge. 2nd Bn will go to Arnhem via the river road. All of the motorized AT Plt's are ordered to Velp to screen Arnhem and delay German reinforcements. 1st Para HQ and base hide in wooded hills south of the LZ.
1 AL Bde: All 3 Bn's are ordered to attack Arnhem from the north via Schaarsbergen (town just south of Deelen Airfield). The motorized elements- 9 Engr Coy and some AT and mortar Plts- go to Velp and blocking positions on the highway coming into Arnhem from the north.
Glider Pilot Regt and Pathfinders: Ordered to take blocking positions on approaches to the LZ, and containing attacks eastward from the LZ towards Oosterbeek.
1st AB Recce Sqn: Will attack Arnhem from north, thru center of town, over bridge and into South Bridge objective.
Divisional HQ, arty, and bases: Will deploy in the forest north of Arnhem.

[Fred Sanford]

Nijmegen: Initial orders after landing, D1 @ 1400:
504th PIR: 2nd & 3rd Bns,the Engr Coy and ALL the regiment's mortars are order to the Grave bridge to start softening up defenses. They are given defend orders without attack selected. I'll attack once I'm in position and the mortars have had a chance to work. 1st Bn will go to Heumen and defend near there.
505th PIR: 1st Bn and the engineers go to the Mook area with defend orders. 2nd Bn attacks Groesbeek. 3rd Bn attacks Nijmegen.
508th PIR: Attacks Nijmegen, leaving only the AT Coy to guard the highway near the LZ.
82nd Divisional units: The arty bns and recon plt take blocking positions between Berg en Dal and Nijmegen, with the HQ and bases shielded by the arty. One MG Coy goes to Somerchen.

[Phoenix100]

Great. Very interesting and useful, Fred. Thanks. I like the idea of 'hiding' the Bde HQ in woods as an alternative to assigning a Bn to hold the DZ!! Very innovative. I will try some of this. I have also never even considered sending off the AT units without substantial inf support, as they always seem very weak when attacked. Keep the pics coming! Have you got two similar pics from around 9am day 2? If you're taking from saves I would love to see a pic from that time with 'Supply Status' checked so we could see in the corner boxes who was connected after the six o'clock run, and who wasn't. Thanks again.

[Fred Sanford]

D1 1800 screen shots show the development of the battle:
Arnhem
1 Para Bde: 2nd Bn is trying to worm it's way into Arnhem, and the rest of the Bde attacks Oosterbeek.
1 AL Bde: Attacks into Arnhem are underway, and the 2nd Staffs dig in in East Arnhem, while you can see the screen in Velp has been contacted by the Germans. They are attacking the outlying AT plt, and I'm in the middle of processing orders- I reattached everything on 'in situ' defense to the Div HQ- IMO this improves artillery support without micromanaging, and also reduces command load. BUT, the facing bug is hitting me- the AT plt under attack is facing away from the Germans.
1 AB Div misc. 1 Recce Sqn is assaulting across the bridge, and you can see where blocking positions and the bases have set up.

[Fred Sanford]

Nijmegen D1 1800
504th PIR: Assaulting troops have pulled the wires to the demo charges and pushed the defenders across the river.
505th PIR/Mook-Groosebeek Heights: I've edged the engineers forward near the Mook RR bridge, while 3/505(-) moves into the woods overlooking the bridge. I detached H coy down to the Reithorst area to interfere with the Germans getting points and to delay reinforcements from that direction. 2/505 wraps up it's attack on Groesebeek town. You can see how thin my LZ screen is.
508th PIR/Nijmegen: The attack is underway, and I'm driving hard for both bridges. The RR bridge looks unguarded. Is it?
You can see where my arty screen and bases are. Hope I don't get pressed too hard, I'm 'all in' on Nijmegen.

[Fred Sanford]

Arnhem D2 1032, after supply with 'supply line' on. Only 1 Recce Sqn., across the river, is out of supply for now. Velp has been overrun, but I managed to save the engineer coy and some of the AT guns. F troop is still shooting it's little heart out, at SE highway crossing area. Kudos to Capt. Parmenter and the boys!
The RR bridge was blown overnight- the engineers got a little too close. I've sent 1st and 3rd bns to attack in order to try and unstick 2nd bn and get it all into Arnhem. By the time of the save, 2 Bn HQ had been destroyed, and the mortars are beat up, but the 3 infantry coys made to the north bridge area. Except for some Glider Pilot company attacks, everyone else is on defend in situ, and attached to 1st AB Div HQ. Does facing even matter in situ?

[Fred Sanford]

South D2 1032: Down at Grave, 2/504 is continuing to chase down the remaining Germans in the area. I don't want them holding up XXX Corps!
After supporting the attack on Grave bridge, 3/504 moved up the highway overnight to take up positions by the highway bridge at Honinghutje. At daybreak, they began firing at the bridge garrison, routing the flak unit and retreating the infantry unit. I launched an attack, and have seized the highway bridge.
Also, during the night the German garrison at the northernmost of 3 canal bridges (Hatert) moved off, so I moved the closest units in to occupy it. An engineer company is moving up to defuse the bridge charges.
Since I grabbed one of the three canal brides, I was able to move 1/504 up to attack Nijmegen.
Along the landing zones, the Germans are up into the heights and woods, but haven't really attacked me directly yet.
I've seized the Mook RR bridge with the engineers supported by 3/505, but H Co. is getting roughed up down in Reithorst, but they're doing their job keeping Germans from reinforcing Mook.

[Fred Sanford]

Close up of Nijmegen, D2 @ 1032:
I've called off most of the attacks due to fatigue, casualties, and the presence of SS on the north bank. 1/504 is still trying to collapse the KG Henke pocket, but I think trying to force a few companies to the far bank right now is a suicide mission. So I'll wait for XXX Corps.

[Phoenix100]

Excellent, Fred. Thanks. I'm amazed supply got through so well up in Arnhem - even to your blocking unit over near Velper Broek. Of course, it's about 4 hours since the AI calculated the routes and dawn will have brought some movement since then, so it's possible that by day 1 evening the supply situation will have worsened, but still....

I think the AI behaviour certainly looks different to me. For instance, it's clear that your, in effect, ceding the objectives south of Nijmegan has meant the AI has allocated resources to sit on them, and not, instead, to contesting, with determination, those that remain - the crucial DZ objective, for example, which if contested would probably quickly cut your supply to all your paras in central Nijmegan. Similarly, in Arnhem, your tactics of offering lots of smaller fights around blocking positions have been taken up, without the AI trying to gather its strength and go for the key bridge objectives. But even worse, no attempt to cut off supply by overrunning the DZ, which is wide open for that. All the AI has to do, in both op areas, is send a Bn size unit onto your SEPs and your supply is finished. There are objectives for the AI near the SEP markers, but the AI is too occupied elsewhere to go for them.

I think I'll definitely mod it to up the AI focus on the bridges and SEPs.

Is this a recording of your previous win, Fred, or are you playing it through again? Can you do the supply pic again for day 1 evening? I'm really interested in how supply has changed. Ok, the SEPs are clear, but the AI is still having to worm thorugh many enemy zones of control to get supply through.

[Fred Sanford]

My thinking on the SEPs at the LZs is that they don't really matter much because (1) the bases and unit stocks provide about 3-4 days worth of supplies when they drop. If I can get 1-2 days of supplies from the SEP before it gets overrun then that should be enough to carry me through. (2) Also, since after a few days of trying to get supplies to cut off units, the bases will lose all of their vehicles and won't be able to distribute supplies after then, so holding the SEPs becomes moot.

I'm posting these from saves, btw. I can post a screen shot of D1 @ 1800, but everyone's in supply at that time. There's also not that many Germans in the area west of Arnhem.