It’s been a while since any new AARs have been posted here.
My past AARs have been chronological records, detailed down to the level of individual weapons. This one will be more conceptual and graphical. The report will be presented in segments.
Objectives
We have been instructed to destroy the Thanh Hoa Bridge within 12 (was 24) hours, while keeping casualties below a certain level. The first thing I am going to do is redefine the objectives. What the victory conditions consider to be acceptable casualties, I consider to be horrendous casualties. There is no justification for losing any planes to enemy fighters or SAMs in this scenario. The only losses I am prepared to accept are Intruders or Corsairs, and only because most of their available weapons are iron bombs, and someone has to take out the AAA. The B-52s won’t be bombing anything that can shoot back. I will be aiming for zero casualties. At the same time, I am not going to pay much attention to the 12 (was 24) hour deadline. The bridge isn’t going anywhere. The Kitty Hawk isn’t going anywhere. The enemy isn’t going to be doing anything different tomorrow that matters. Throwing troops to die against a target for political reasons is not something that happens on my watch.
The mission I have chosen to accept is to do as much damage to the bridge as possible in 24 hours, while keeping my casualties as close to zero as possible.
Period Considerations
The time period in question is well before what is normal for Harpoon. In order to simulate this, it is necessary to not use many of the weapons that could be used. For example, we could just arm every Corsair with Harpoons and lay waste to everything in sight. That might provide some amusement, but not much. However, the restriction has been implemented in large measure by providing only early model airplanes.
What exactly constitutes reasonable restrictions? I don’t know, but I will simply not rearm any unit with anything other than the initial loadout. What this means is that only 6 of our attack aircraft have “stand-off” weapons, and this won’t be enough to destroy the enemy air defences. Primary targets will be the SAM sites. After that, we will use rockets against the AAA, but mostly, we will have to use iron bombs. This is a recipe for losing airplanes.
Force Analysis
Our fighters completely outclass the opposition. Our Phantoms carry 8 missiles, all of which outrange anything the enemy fighters carry. Even some of our attack aircraft can do a job on the enemy fighters. The Vietnamese have MiG-17Fs, which only have guns, MiG-19s, and MiG-21MFs. Their maximum missile range is 4 nm. Each Phantom should be able to safely shoot down 2 (maybe 3) enemy fighters, and we have 24 of them. Unfortunately, the enemy has over 80 fighters, so we will need 2 fighter sweeps, using all available fighters.
The second phase of the battle will match our attack aircraft against ground defences. The Vietnamese AAA exists in 3 flavors: small, medium, and large (Ks-19, 100 mm). Only the KS-19 has a range that is equivalent to the rockets on the Corsairs, and it is likely only this weapon that will inflict any casualties. However, since all the AAA has a range less than 5 nm, we may be able to just stay away from the guns. The enemy SAMs are SA-2s, which have a range of 24 nm. These weapons will be priority targets for our Standard ARMs. Unfortunately, only 4 of our airplanes carry Standard missiles, for a total of only 8 in the entire force (per attack wave). Still, I think that this phase of the battle will also be very much in our favor.
The third phase of the battle will see a dozen Stratofortresses dropping 18 tons of bombs each on the bridge, possibly supported by the attack aircraft. Or maybe we will use 500 lb bombs; they seem to do more damage per pound.
As to ships, we have ships, they don’t. Nuff said. Nor do they have anything else that could possibly harm our ships.
As if that weren’t enough, all our aircraft have a much larger range than the Vietnamese ones, plus we have tankers, plus we have AEW aircraft and EW aircraft.
So overall, this scenario looks to be very much in our favor.
Difficulties
1) The Vietnamese have a lot of fighters (and we have quite a few as well). So when the shooting starts, there will be a lot of stuff flying around. Unfortunately, Harpoon has a deficiency common to many real-time games: the interface does not allow you to control all your units at once. Since the computer does not control your units properly in many crisis situations, you have to do it manually. Therefore you have to arrange the battle so that only one unit experiences a crisis at a time. And since you also have to search through your forces to even find the unit that’s in crisis, which is not an easy task in Harpoon, there needs to be a time interval of at least 10 seconds or so between crises. And since we are also trying to run a simulation, the solution we come up with cannot deviate too far from what could happen in real life.
In real life, our Phantoms would happily go hunting by themselves, because the real pilots can control their planes very well, and in particular, they are quite capable of locating and engaging enemy planes by themselves. However, in Harpoon, locating enemy planes can be problematic, and the fighters will generally not behave properly by themselves. Therefore we need to ensure that we locate ALL enemy planes well outside their weapons range, and manually send fighters to engage each one. The tactical formation described later will accomplish this, and while I consider it to be unrealistic, the overall result should be reasonable.
This begs the question of who is controlling the enemy fighters. However, due to their low weapons ranges and perhaps also their tactical doctrine, they probably can’t do much more than charge into the whirling blades of doom in real life, which is what they do in the game.
2) Many of the enemy fighters will be patrolling in their base formation. This means that they do not show up in the group window. Since attack and intercept orders need to be assigned in the group window, the problem is obvious. A partial solution is to attack or intercept the base associated with those aircraft and let the computer sort it out. There are still technical difficulties with this, which I won’t get into here.
3) The final big problem is that it is actually very hard to locate the enemy airplanes. In particular, the MiG-17s are VERY hard to locate. It’s almost as if they have cloaking devices. I think it has mainly to do with the fact that they don’t have missiles, so they never turn their radars on.
Next section: maps and plans.
WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
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VictorInThePacific
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 am
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
The Fleet
Our ships start the scenario merrily cruising along at 19 kn, well away from the target area. I am not going to spend any time discussing this, because I don’t think it’s important and there could be an awful lot to consider. However, on general principles, I slow the fleet to creep speed (5 kn) and spread the formation out a bit – line ahead, 5 nm separation, DDG in front, CG behind.
In real life, wind speed and direction affect carrier launches in a number of ways, and the carrier needs to act accordingly. In Harpoon, you just order the planes to launch and they launch. Planes also never crash on landing or due to previous battle damage. Harpoon ignores phenomena at that scale. It’s an unimportant loss of realism and a major increase in playability.
As mentioned earlier, I am expecting no threats to the fleet, air, surface, or subsurface. We rule the seas. Period.
Terrain
Thanh Hoa Bridge is near the west edge of the Gulf of Tonkin, which opens to the east and SE. There is land in all other directions. This means that there could be SAMs and such everywhere but directly to the east and SE of the bridge. Therefore the bombers need to approach the bridge from those directions to avoid the maximum number of ground defences.
There is a small airbase 10 nm W of the bridge, and a major one (Hanoi) 75 nm N. We may need to destroy the small base.
We have an airbase 500 nm SW of Thanh Hoa Bridge. Our fleet is about 330 nm SE of the bridge, in the South China Sea, directly S of Hainan, and will remain approximately there for the duration of the scenario. Both American airbases are secure because the Vietnamese have nothing resembling a bomber. However, there may be PT boats in the Gulf of Tonkin.
Attack Plan
Phase 3
The B-52s will fly 450 nm NE to cross the coastline near Vinh Hai, then 60 nm N, then 50 nm NW, bomb Thanh Hoa Bridge, then return by the same route. (see map 2) This corridor will need to be cleared of ground defences during Phase 2. Flight time, one way, will be at least an hour, but could be 50% higher. Round trip time, including rearming, will be at least 3 hours. This is just a short hop for a B-52.
The astute observer will note that N-S and E-W directions on the map use different scales.
Phase 2
Using ARMs, other stand-off weapons, rockets, and bombs, our Corsairs and Intruders will eliminate all ground defences and radars from the Phase 3 bomber corridor. Only 6 Intruders have stand-off weapons, so these will need to be reserved for the SAMs.
It is not possible to provide a detailed attack plan at this time, except as follows. I expect that the ground defences will not be fully interlocking. That is, each unit will be defended only by itself and maybe one SAM. In this situation, after some of the SAMs have been destroyed or suppressed, the remaining units will be separated by distances well beyond their own ranges, so the defence structure will look porous, and our planes will be able to safely infiltrate the whole structure and keep finding more weak points to attack safely. Iron bombs will only be used against targets that can’t shoot back. Rockets will only be used against targets that can’t shoot back or against the 100 mm AAA.
A Vigilante will be used to locate the Vietnamese ground defences. Vigilantes are fast enough to escape from most threats, and these planes appear to locate ground units very well.
Phase 1
The airspace over the Gulf of Tonkin that is more than 25 nm from shore is safe against everything but Vietnamese fighters. I want to engage their fighters in this region. There is no guarantee that they will come out to play, but I do expect them to do so. There are only two more difficulties: there are a lot more enemy fighters than we can shoot down in one go, even using all our fighters, and there are significant difficulties in locating them. Therefore I am going to advance some Hawkeyes to where they will be able to locate the enemy fighters. The Hawkeyes are our only airplanes with a useful air search radar, but it only picks up VS radar targets at 80 nm. So the Hawkeyes will need to fly right into the danger zone. I think that this would NEVER be permitted in real life, as these planes are just too valuable and they are sitting ducks to even a farmer with a slingshot. But if managed carefully, and in particular, if we always keep plenty of fighters available, it should be safe. The deployment I am aiming for is shown in map 1. There is a belt of Phantoms (F) 25-50 nm from the coast. 2 Hawkeyes (H) and 1 Vigilante (V) are 25-50 nm behind them. More Phantoms are available in the rear to replace the depleted ones from the forward belt. Phase 1 will be considered complete if we can achieve this deployment and the large majority of the enemy fighters have been destroyed.
Other considerations
There is no good reason to keep any fighters near the fleet. However, I will reserve 6 fighters for fleet point defence at all times on general principles, except when more fighters will shortly be ready for action.
The Corsairs also carry AA missiles! 2 each!
I don’t expect to need the tankers, but we do have 4 available.
One Hawkeye will be patrolling near the fleet; the fourth one will be held in reserve.
Next section: tally ho!
Our ships start the scenario merrily cruising along at 19 kn, well away from the target area. I am not going to spend any time discussing this, because I don’t think it’s important and there could be an awful lot to consider. However, on general principles, I slow the fleet to creep speed (5 kn) and spread the formation out a bit – line ahead, 5 nm separation, DDG in front, CG behind.
In real life, wind speed and direction affect carrier launches in a number of ways, and the carrier needs to act accordingly. In Harpoon, you just order the planes to launch and they launch. Planes also never crash on landing or due to previous battle damage. Harpoon ignores phenomena at that scale. It’s an unimportant loss of realism and a major increase in playability.
As mentioned earlier, I am expecting no threats to the fleet, air, surface, or subsurface. We rule the seas. Period.
Terrain
Thanh Hoa Bridge is near the west edge of the Gulf of Tonkin, which opens to the east and SE. There is land in all other directions. This means that there could be SAMs and such everywhere but directly to the east and SE of the bridge. Therefore the bombers need to approach the bridge from those directions to avoid the maximum number of ground defences.
There is a small airbase 10 nm W of the bridge, and a major one (Hanoi) 75 nm N. We may need to destroy the small base.
We have an airbase 500 nm SW of Thanh Hoa Bridge. Our fleet is about 330 nm SE of the bridge, in the South China Sea, directly S of Hainan, and will remain approximately there for the duration of the scenario. Both American airbases are secure because the Vietnamese have nothing resembling a bomber. However, there may be PT boats in the Gulf of Tonkin.
Attack Plan
Phase 3
The B-52s will fly 450 nm NE to cross the coastline near Vinh Hai, then 60 nm N, then 50 nm NW, bomb Thanh Hoa Bridge, then return by the same route. (see map 2) This corridor will need to be cleared of ground defences during Phase 2. Flight time, one way, will be at least an hour, but could be 50% higher. Round trip time, including rearming, will be at least 3 hours. This is just a short hop for a B-52.
The astute observer will note that N-S and E-W directions on the map use different scales.
Phase 2
Using ARMs, other stand-off weapons, rockets, and bombs, our Corsairs and Intruders will eliminate all ground defences and radars from the Phase 3 bomber corridor. Only 6 Intruders have stand-off weapons, so these will need to be reserved for the SAMs.
It is not possible to provide a detailed attack plan at this time, except as follows. I expect that the ground defences will not be fully interlocking. That is, each unit will be defended only by itself and maybe one SAM. In this situation, after some of the SAMs have been destroyed or suppressed, the remaining units will be separated by distances well beyond their own ranges, so the defence structure will look porous, and our planes will be able to safely infiltrate the whole structure and keep finding more weak points to attack safely. Iron bombs will only be used against targets that can’t shoot back. Rockets will only be used against targets that can’t shoot back or against the 100 mm AAA.
A Vigilante will be used to locate the Vietnamese ground defences. Vigilantes are fast enough to escape from most threats, and these planes appear to locate ground units very well.
Phase 1
The airspace over the Gulf of Tonkin that is more than 25 nm from shore is safe against everything but Vietnamese fighters. I want to engage their fighters in this region. There is no guarantee that they will come out to play, but I do expect them to do so. There are only two more difficulties: there are a lot more enemy fighters than we can shoot down in one go, even using all our fighters, and there are significant difficulties in locating them. Therefore I am going to advance some Hawkeyes to where they will be able to locate the enemy fighters. The Hawkeyes are our only airplanes with a useful air search radar, but it only picks up VS radar targets at 80 nm. So the Hawkeyes will need to fly right into the danger zone. I think that this would NEVER be permitted in real life, as these planes are just too valuable and they are sitting ducks to even a farmer with a slingshot. But if managed carefully, and in particular, if we always keep plenty of fighters available, it should be safe. The deployment I am aiming for is shown in map 1. There is a belt of Phantoms (F) 25-50 nm from the coast. 2 Hawkeyes (H) and 1 Vigilante (V) are 25-50 nm behind them. More Phantoms are available in the rear to replace the depleted ones from the forward belt. Phase 1 will be considered complete if we can achieve this deployment and the large majority of the enemy fighters have been destroyed.
Other considerations
There is no good reason to keep any fighters near the fleet. However, I will reserve 6 fighters for fleet point defence at all times on general principles, except when more fighters will shortly be ready for action.
The Corsairs also carry AA missiles! 2 each!
I don’t expect to need the tankers, but we do have 4 available.
One Hawkeye will be patrolling near the fleet; the fourth one will be held in reserve.
Next section: tally ho!
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Very nice, VitP. I especially like the graphical representations of how you planned ingress routes, formations, and such. [:)]
Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner
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VictorInThePacific
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 am
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Operations begin
I just realized that we only have 12 hours, not 24. This doesn’t seem like enough time.
The format of the report will be a set of sections, each a summary of the action during about 1 hour of game time followed by some interim analysis. Screenshots will be provided for interesting events. Thumbnails will be provided occasionally.
If you start this scenario multiple times, you realize that you often start in the middle of a bunch of whales. In this situation, you could do a torpedo live fire exercise (see my “Sea Shepherd Society” thread). Today, there were no whales.
The Kitty Hawk has 4 catapults, so it might be able to launch 4 planes simultaneously. However, only one plane can be launched every 30 s. I generally launch fighters and attack planes in pairs and others individually. I don’t like to waste fuel by flying in large formations.
The first plane out is a Hawkeye, because it is critical to my plan and it flies quite slowly. It’s a bit of a problem coordinating the Hawkeye with its guard fighters because their speeds are quite different.
The first screenshot shows one Hawkeye and 3 pairs of Phantoms outward bound. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgA.png The fleet formation has been tweaked, and the ships are all creeping. Note that the sonar circles (green in unit window) and the radar circles (white in group window) actually look like ellipses. It may be of some concern that the carrier has no sonar coverage to the sides. However, North Vietnam doesn’t have any subs.
We have very limited ASW capacity – only 6 helicopters overall. All the Vikings are set as tankers, and I am assuming that the scenario rules do not allow them to be reset as ASW planes.
In the second screenshot, 3 more pairs of Phantoms are outward bound. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgB.png Note that the Hawkeye has still not detected any hostile forces, air or surface.
A few seconds later, we launch an RA-5C, and what a difference that makes! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgC.png 16 immediate contacts: 4 air, the rest on the ground. More fighters, AAA, and SAMs are detected later.
The first solid contacts on enemy aircraft start occurring at about 40 nm from the Hawkeye. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgD.png This is half the range at which we were expecting to locate these aircraft. Although we are surprised, we can cope. The intercept button helps. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgE.png 4 missiles per target seems about right. None of this namby-pamby shoot, look, shoot, look, …
Technical detail: the last 2 screenshots are of the same instant in game time, but the unit window looks different.
After using 16 Sparrows and 12 SideWinders, we only have 3 kills. This is a rather pathetic start.
About 45 min into the scenario, we have been able to refine the locations of most of the enemy ground defences. Most of the enemy fighters appear to be running away. They have rather poor endurance. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgF.png This could cause us some problems. If the Vietnamese withhold their fighters from combat, then I will have to start sending in the attack planes well before the enemy fighters are eliminated. 4 (ARM-ed) A-6Bs are sent to join the fray.
After my planes have expended their ordnance, time becomes much more important than fuel use, so I generally send them home at the highest non-afterburner speed.
About 1 hour into the scenario, we detect some “drug runners” (a total of 4). http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgG.png They appear to be neutral, which means we probably shouldn’t shoot them. These things travel at 70 kn! Must be some sort of rocket boat.
Of more concern is the loss of contact on the enemy fighter. This seems to be happening a lot. When this happens, our planes need to run away to avoid bad accidents.
15 min later, the RA-5C is now well in advance of our other planes. Seeing nothing new, it turns on its radar (SS only). http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgH.png This seems to have an additional effect of jamming a bunch of the enemy radars, even more than 100 nm away. It’s 110 nm to the secondary airbase, and a further 75 nm to Hanoi.
Another side effect of turning on the radar is that it attracts unwanted (or is that wanted ?) attention. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgI.png The RA-5C flees at 800 kn (and it can go 50% faster). The MiG-17 is pursuing at 420 kn, and it doesn’t have missiles. Its only advantage is the cloaking device.
Analysis so far:
After 1 hour 20 min, we have destroyed 14 enemy fighters for no loss. We have (equivalent to) 12 fighters available on the front line, as well as 2 Hawkeyes and 1 Vigilante, and 4 A-6Bs are approaching. 44 enemy fighters are parked on their bases.
This is not working out the way I had hoped. By refusing to engage with their mobile force, the Vietnamese retain it as a threat.
My attack plan is going to be modified. (see map 1a) The “safe” area will be extended to the SW. One more Vigilante will be brought up for additional detection capacity. The Intruders will try to start working over the enemy ground defences.
The Vietnamese have no submarines! Nevertheless, on general principles, 2 Sea Kings will be put on ASW patrol to cover the flanks of the fleet. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/formation.png
I just realized that we only have 12 hours, not 24. This doesn’t seem like enough time.
The format of the report will be a set of sections, each a summary of the action during about 1 hour of game time followed by some interim analysis. Screenshots will be provided for interesting events. Thumbnails will be provided occasionally.
If you start this scenario multiple times, you realize that you often start in the middle of a bunch of whales. In this situation, you could do a torpedo live fire exercise (see my “Sea Shepherd Society” thread). Today, there were no whales.
The Kitty Hawk has 4 catapults, so it might be able to launch 4 planes simultaneously. However, only one plane can be launched every 30 s. I generally launch fighters and attack planes in pairs and others individually. I don’t like to waste fuel by flying in large formations.
The first plane out is a Hawkeye, because it is critical to my plan and it flies quite slowly. It’s a bit of a problem coordinating the Hawkeye with its guard fighters because their speeds are quite different.
The first screenshot shows one Hawkeye and 3 pairs of Phantoms outward bound. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgA.png The fleet formation has been tweaked, and the ships are all creeping. Note that the sonar circles (green in unit window) and the radar circles (white in group window) actually look like ellipses. It may be of some concern that the carrier has no sonar coverage to the sides. However, North Vietnam doesn’t have any subs.
We have very limited ASW capacity – only 6 helicopters overall. All the Vikings are set as tankers, and I am assuming that the scenario rules do not allow them to be reset as ASW planes.
In the second screenshot, 3 more pairs of Phantoms are outward bound. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgB.png Note that the Hawkeye has still not detected any hostile forces, air or surface.
A few seconds later, we launch an RA-5C, and what a difference that makes! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgC.png 16 immediate contacts: 4 air, the rest on the ground. More fighters, AAA, and SAMs are detected later.
The first solid contacts on enemy aircraft start occurring at about 40 nm from the Hawkeye. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgD.png This is half the range at which we were expecting to locate these aircraft. Although we are surprised, we can cope. The intercept button helps. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgE.png 4 missiles per target seems about right. None of this namby-pamby shoot, look, shoot, look, …
Technical detail: the last 2 screenshots are of the same instant in game time, but the unit window looks different.
After using 16 Sparrows and 12 SideWinders, we only have 3 kills. This is a rather pathetic start.
About 45 min into the scenario, we have been able to refine the locations of most of the enemy ground defences. Most of the enemy fighters appear to be running away. They have rather poor endurance. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgF.png This could cause us some problems. If the Vietnamese withhold their fighters from combat, then I will have to start sending in the attack planes well before the enemy fighters are eliminated. 4 (ARM-ed) A-6Bs are sent to join the fray.
After my planes have expended their ordnance, time becomes much more important than fuel use, so I generally send them home at the highest non-afterburner speed.
About 1 hour into the scenario, we detect some “drug runners” (a total of 4). http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgG.png They appear to be neutral, which means we probably shouldn’t shoot them. These things travel at 70 kn! Must be some sort of rocket boat.
Of more concern is the loss of contact on the enemy fighter. This seems to be happening a lot. When this happens, our planes need to run away to avoid bad accidents.
15 min later, the RA-5C is now well in advance of our other planes. Seeing nothing new, it turns on its radar (SS only). http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgH.png This seems to have an additional effect of jamming a bunch of the enemy radars, even more than 100 nm away. It’s 110 nm to the secondary airbase, and a further 75 nm to Hanoi.
Another side effect of turning on the radar is that it attracts unwanted (or is that wanted ?) attention. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgI.png The RA-5C flees at 800 kn (and it can go 50% faster). The MiG-17 is pursuing at 420 kn, and it doesn’t have missiles. Its only advantage is the cloaking device.
Analysis so far:
After 1 hour 20 min, we have destroyed 14 enemy fighters for no loss. We have (equivalent to) 12 fighters available on the front line, as well as 2 Hawkeyes and 1 Vigilante, and 4 A-6Bs are approaching. 44 enemy fighters are parked on their bases.
This is not working out the way I had hoped. By refusing to engage with their mobile force, the Vietnamese retain it as a threat.
My attack plan is going to be modified. (see map 1a) The “safe” area will be extended to the SW. One more Vigilante will be brought up for additional detection capacity. The Intruders will try to start working over the enemy ground defences.
The Vietnamese have no submarines! Nevertheless, on general principles, 2 Sea Kings will be put on ASW patrol to cover the flanks of the fleet. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/formation.png
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
I'm enjoying this AAR though it is way above the level of seriousness of any scenario I've written.
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VictorInThePacific
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 am
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Ground attack plan 1
1 hour 25 min into the scenario, the immediate problem has been reduced to 4 enemy fighters. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgJ.png Unfortunately, this is deceptive, because they are very hard to detect, as the latest screenshot shows (as well as others).
In any case, it is time to start considering how to attack the ground defences. It has already been pointed out that we simply do not have enough ground attack weapons of the proper type to simply overwhelm the defences; we need to allocate weapons carefully.
The Vietnamese SAM units have a surface search radar (yellow “circles” on the group map) and a 100 nm or better air search radar (white “circles” on the group map). The KS-19s have a short range AS radar, which is useful for easy identification of these units, but does not concern us further. The Vietnamese radar units have a 100 nm or better air search radar. It is pretty important to destroy these AS radars.
The above map shows the location of the ground defence units in the region south of Thanh Hoa bridge. Some of the distances between units (in nm) are shown.
As was predicted earlier, there are actually big holes in the structure of the enemy ground defence. Our attack planes will be able to wander through the structure easily and pick off weak points at will. Of course, this assumes that there are no other, undetected, ground defences, and that there are no enemy fighters.
The seven southernmost ground defence units will be dealt with as follows:
1) SAM 1 will be hit with one or several Standard missiles, with the objective of knocking out its AS radar. It would take a lot of Standard missiles to completely destroy the unit, and we don’t have enough of them, so we will simply avoid the SAM after the radar is gone. On the other hand, I suspect that, once the radar is knocked out, the SAMs will be useless.
2) Radar site 1, being defenceless, will be bombed.
3) The 3 KS-19s will be avoided. They can’t do anything outside of 5 nm range.
4) SAM 2 will be hit with one or several Standard missiles, with the objective of knocking out its AS radar. We may need to fully destroy this unit later.
5) Radar 2 will be hit with Shrike missiles. One hit is enough for a kill.
A pair of Intruders with bombs will be brought up to the front, as well as 2 pairs of Corsairs with rockets (and Sidewinders !) for additional flexibility.
The struggle continues
Unfortunately, the Vietnamese are not cooperating with my plans. They keep sending small groups of fighters against us. Since the Hawkeyes cannot safely enter the hornets’ nest without massive fighter support, which we do not yet have, we cannot safely send in the attack aircraft, because the enemy can see them, but we can’t see the enemy fighters.
1 hour 30 min into the scenario, we have now shot down 20 enemy fighters for no loss. The 2 remaining enemy fighters are retreating; we won’t pursue. We have 10 fighters at the front, but their ordnance status makes them equivalent to only 6 fighters. The first pair of fighters that returned to the Kitty Hawk will be ready in 15 min, so 2 of the 6 reserve fighters are now being sent forward. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgK.png
At 1 hour 45 min, the 4 rocket boats are roaring past my fleet, only 5 nm away. Someone should tell them that this is not reasonable behavior in a war zone. A Viking tanker is sent to the front just in case we need it. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/drug.png
Status after 2 hours 20 min
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgL.png
- 32 enemy fighters destroyed for no loss
- 28 enemy fighters on the ground; 16 detected in the air
- 5 friendly fighters available at the front; 4 more are on their way
- 2 Hawkeyes and 2 Vigilantes at the front
- 10 attack aircraft at the front; just waiting for the coast to clear
- 1 tanker at the front
1 hour 25 min into the scenario, the immediate problem has been reduced to 4 enemy fighters. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgJ.png Unfortunately, this is deceptive, because they are very hard to detect, as the latest screenshot shows (as well as others).
In any case, it is time to start considering how to attack the ground defences. It has already been pointed out that we simply do not have enough ground attack weapons of the proper type to simply overwhelm the defences; we need to allocate weapons carefully.
The Vietnamese SAM units have a surface search radar (yellow “circles” on the group map) and a 100 nm or better air search radar (white “circles” on the group map). The KS-19s have a short range AS radar, which is useful for easy identification of these units, but does not concern us further. The Vietnamese radar units have a 100 nm or better air search radar. It is pretty important to destroy these AS radars.
The above map shows the location of the ground defence units in the region south of Thanh Hoa bridge. Some of the distances between units (in nm) are shown.
As was predicted earlier, there are actually big holes in the structure of the enemy ground defence. Our attack planes will be able to wander through the structure easily and pick off weak points at will. Of course, this assumes that there are no other, undetected, ground defences, and that there are no enemy fighters.
The seven southernmost ground defence units will be dealt with as follows:
1) SAM 1 will be hit with one or several Standard missiles, with the objective of knocking out its AS radar. It would take a lot of Standard missiles to completely destroy the unit, and we don’t have enough of them, so we will simply avoid the SAM after the radar is gone. On the other hand, I suspect that, once the radar is knocked out, the SAMs will be useless.
2) Radar site 1, being defenceless, will be bombed.
3) The 3 KS-19s will be avoided. They can’t do anything outside of 5 nm range.
4) SAM 2 will be hit with one or several Standard missiles, with the objective of knocking out its AS radar. We may need to fully destroy this unit later.
5) Radar 2 will be hit with Shrike missiles. One hit is enough for a kill.
A pair of Intruders with bombs will be brought up to the front, as well as 2 pairs of Corsairs with rockets (and Sidewinders !) for additional flexibility.
The struggle continues
Unfortunately, the Vietnamese are not cooperating with my plans. They keep sending small groups of fighters against us. Since the Hawkeyes cannot safely enter the hornets’ nest without massive fighter support, which we do not yet have, we cannot safely send in the attack aircraft, because the enemy can see them, but we can’t see the enemy fighters.
1 hour 30 min into the scenario, we have now shot down 20 enemy fighters for no loss. The 2 remaining enemy fighters are retreating; we won’t pursue. We have 10 fighters at the front, but their ordnance status makes them equivalent to only 6 fighters. The first pair of fighters that returned to the Kitty Hawk will be ready in 15 min, so 2 of the 6 reserve fighters are now being sent forward. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgK.png
At 1 hour 45 min, the 4 rocket boats are roaring past my fleet, only 5 nm away. Someone should tell them that this is not reasonable behavior in a war zone. A Viking tanker is sent to the front just in case we need it. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/drug.png
Status after 2 hours 20 min
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgL.png
- 32 enemy fighters destroyed for no loss
- 28 enemy fighters on the ground; 16 detected in the air
- 5 friendly fighters available at the front; 4 more are on their way
- 2 Hawkeyes and 2 Vigilantes at the front
- 10 attack aircraft at the front; just waiting for the coast to clear
- 1 tanker at the front
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VictorInThePacific
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 am
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
ASW considerations
It has already been stated several times that North Vietnam doesn’t have any subs. This is a good thing, because we have very limited ASW capacity. The fleet is presently formed in line ahead, with the DD in front and the CG behind, and about 4 nm between ships. The CG passive sonar has a range of 6 nm; the DD passive sonar has a range of 5 nm. One Sea King is patrolling each flank, about 7 nm out. This gives decent coverage for the Kitty Hawk, or at least about as much as is possible with the available forces.
One problem is that the Sea Kings can patrol for hours, while their sonobuoys are all deployed in minutes. This means that the automatic ASW patrol routines don’t work very well. The helicopters should return to the Kitty Hawk not when their fuel is low, but when their sonobuoys are about to die of old age. This will need to be implemented manually. However, the Sea Kings do have a decent dipping sonar with a 2.5 nm range, which can be seen in the image below. It looks like the sonobuoy range is about 2.5 nm.
Status after 4 hours
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgM2.png
- 56 enemy fighters destroyed for no loss
- 18 enemy fighters on the ground; 2 detected in the air
- 8 friendly fighters available at the front; 4 more are on their way
- 2 Hawkeyes and 2 Vigilantes at the front
- 10 attack aircraft at the front; just waiting for the coast to clear
Our 4 tankers are not enough to support the forward force aloft indefinitely. It will be necessary to mount an immediate strike against the ground defences and return the entire force to the Kitty Hawk. This will take about one hour. Refueling and return will take another two hours. This will leave 5 hours for Phase 3, which will allow for 2 B-52 strikes. So it looks like we are in pretty good shape. Unless, of course, there are other defences that we have not yet seen!
It is a good day to die.
It has already been stated several times that North Vietnam doesn’t have any subs. This is a good thing, because we have very limited ASW capacity. The fleet is presently formed in line ahead, with the DD in front and the CG behind, and about 4 nm between ships. The CG passive sonar has a range of 6 nm; the DD passive sonar has a range of 5 nm. One Sea King is patrolling each flank, about 7 nm out. This gives decent coverage for the Kitty Hawk, or at least about as much as is possible with the available forces.
One problem is that the Sea Kings can patrol for hours, while their sonobuoys are all deployed in minutes. This means that the automatic ASW patrol routines don’t work very well. The helicopters should return to the Kitty Hawk not when their fuel is low, but when their sonobuoys are about to die of old age. This will need to be implemented manually. However, the Sea Kings do have a decent dipping sonar with a 2.5 nm range, which can be seen in the image below. It looks like the sonobuoy range is about 2.5 nm.
Status after 4 hours
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgM2.png
- 56 enemy fighters destroyed for no loss
- 18 enemy fighters on the ground; 2 detected in the air
- 8 friendly fighters available at the front; 4 more are on their way
- 2 Hawkeyes and 2 Vigilantes at the front
- 10 attack aircraft at the front; just waiting for the coast to clear
Our 4 tankers are not enough to support the forward force aloft indefinitely. It will be necessary to mount an immediate strike against the ground defences and return the entire force to the Kitty Hawk. This will take about one hour. Refueling and return will take another two hours. This will leave 5 hours for Phase 3, which will allow for 2 B-52 strikes. So it looks like we are in pretty good shape. Unless, of course, there are other defences that we have not yet seen!
It is a good day to die.
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VictorInThePacific
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 am
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Phase 2 commences
15 min later, we take the first shot at the southernmost SAM site. It takes 2 Standard missiles to knock out the AS radar. There’s no need to do any more to this unit, because none of our airplanes need to fly within 25 nm of it.
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgN.png
This Intruder pair later shoots its third Standard missile at the southernmost AS radar, destroying it, and its fourth Standard missile at the southernmost AAA unit, knocking out its AS radar.
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgO.png
In the meantime, the Phantoms are real busy. One hour after the start of Phase 2, 22 more enemy fighters have been shot down. This is a total of 78 enemy fighters destroyed for no loss.
At this point, the Vietnamese air force can no longer offer any significant resistance in this region. Our attack planes will now press the attack right up to Thanh Hoa bridge. The only bottleneck will be the shortage of stand-off air-to-ground missiles. We have 4 standard missiles immediately available to complete Phase 2, part 1. The Intruders will return to the Kitty Hawk for more ordnance and then execute Phase 2, part 2.
The above map shows how the remaining targets will be dealt with. It will take 3 more hours to complete Phase 2, which will leave 4 hours for Phase 3.
In order to increase the effective time available to Phase 3, the heavy bombers will head out one hour before the end of Phase 2. This will put them in position to attack immediately after the air defences are silenced.
15 min later, we take the first shot at the southernmost SAM site. It takes 2 Standard missiles to knock out the AS radar. There’s no need to do any more to this unit, because none of our airplanes need to fly within 25 nm of it.
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgN.png
This Intruder pair later shoots its third Standard missile at the southernmost AS radar, destroying it, and its fourth Standard missile at the southernmost AAA unit, knocking out its AS radar.
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgO.png
In the meantime, the Phantoms are real busy. One hour after the start of Phase 2, 22 more enemy fighters have been shot down. This is a total of 78 enemy fighters destroyed for no loss.
At this point, the Vietnamese air force can no longer offer any significant resistance in this region. Our attack planes will now press the attack right up to Thanh Hoa bridge. The only bottleneck will be the shortage of stand-off air-to-ground missiles. We have 4 standard missiles immediately available to complete Phase 2, part 1. The Intruders will return to the Kitty Hawk for more ordnance and then execute Phase 2, part 2.
The above map shows how the remaining targets will be dealt with. It will take 3 more hours to complete Phase 2, which will leave 4 hours for Phase 3.
In order to increase the effective time available to Phase 3, the heavy bombers will head out one hour before the end of Phase 2. This will put them in position to attack immediately after the air defences are silenced.
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VictorInThePacific
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 am
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Problems develop in Phase 2
It takes two Standard missiles to knock out the AS radar of mobile SAM 2 (see Ground Attack Plan 2 map). The remaining 2 Standard missiles only knock out the SS radar of mobile SAM 3, which isn’t good enough. The 8 available Shrike missiles are used to destroy radar units 2 and 3 (see also Ground Attack Plan 1 map), as well as to continue working over the southernmost AAA unit.
The 4 A-6Bs head back to the Kitty Hawk at top speed for more stand-off missiles. We can’t do much until these planes return with more stand-off weapons, because I am NOT going to send the other bombers in to die.
In the meantime, the Vigilantes are pushed forward. Within 10 minutes, we start to acquire new targets by infrared. These units appear to be clustered around the larger air defence units. The first contacts are obtained at somewhat less than 15 nm. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgP.png
Loitering the Vigilantes at that distance to increase the scan time does not help. They need to approach to about 10 nm before any detailed information is available about these new enemy units. They are non-radiating, so our stand-off anti-radiation missiles are useless. Fortunately, they all have short-range weapons. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgQ.png
The new units:
KS-12 (85 mm) – 3.5 nm range
Grail missile – 2.3 nm range
ZU-23 guns – 1.4 nm range
All of these units can be safely picked off by the rocket-armed Corsairs. However, all of these units can shoot down our other bombers. There may be an altitude restriction (i.e. we will be safe if we bomb from high altitude), but I don’t know whether that is the case. High altitude goes from 2 nm to 11 nm. Horizontal bombing range is 1 nm. Lacking any other information, my standing orders, as suggested in the “Objective” section, are to attack these units only with the rocket-armed Corsairs.
These short-range air defence units appear to be clustered around all the major air defence units. Therefore, while we can’t see them yet, we should expect to find a heavy concentration of these units close to Thanh Hoa Bridge. They will keep our bombers away from the bridge, which is exactly what they are intended to do.
Status after 5 h 40 min
One pair of rocket-armed Corsairs was committed against Vietnamese air defence group ZR. 2 Grail units were destroyed, and some other units were damaged. No further attacks will happen against this group.
One pair of rocket-armed Corsairs (C) is standing by to attack Vietnamese air defence group ZT. This attack is aborted. There is no reason to risk these planes in attacking targets that have no effect on the main mission.
Vietnamese air defence group ZS will also be ignored.
All 3 independent air search radar units have been destroyed.
Two of the SA-2s have been mission killed (air search radar destroyed). Two are still active.
Two KS-19 batteries are waiting near Thanh Hoa Bridge. We are expecting many smaller air defence units to be there as well.
When the A-6Bs are available again, their Standard missiles will be used against the SA-2s and other radars. Their Shrikes will then be used against other radars, primarily the KS-19 radars.
After that, the Walleye-armed Intruders will attack the KS-19s.
After that, the rocket-armed Corsairs will attack targets in order to open up a clear corridor to the bridge for the bombers.
The KS-19, KS-12, and ZU-23 units all have 100 damage points. The Grail units all have 30 damage points.
One rocket-armed Corsair does about 12 x .4 x 8 = 38.4 damage. We have 12 of them. 3 of them together should do enough damage to take out a KS-19, KS-12, or ZU-23 in one shot. When attacking the KS-19 units, the Corsairs will operate in groups of 4 to minimize the number of shots the KS-19s will get. Reorganization of the Corsair groups as rockets are expended will be done depending on the tactical situation.
One Walleye-armed Intruder does about 2 x .6 x 63 = 75.6 damage. We have 2 of them, and they can safely attack the KS-19 units after the SA-2s are disabled.
Our anti-radar missiles do only small amounts of damage. Their only advantage is that they can destroy enemy radars at stand-off ranges.
It takes two Standard missiles to knock out the AS radar of mobile SAM 2 (see Ground Attack Plan 2 map). The remaining 2 Standard missiles only knock out the SS radar of mobile SAM 3, which isn’t good enough. The 8 available Shrike missiles are used to destroy radar units 2 and 3 (see also Ground Attack Plan 1 map), as well as to continue working over the southernmost AAA unit.
The 4 A-6Bs head back to the Kitty Hawk at top speed for more stand-off missiles. We can’t do much until these planes return with more stand-off weapons, because I am NOT going to send the other bombers in to die.
In the meantime, the Vigilantes are pushed forward. Within 10 minutes, we start to acquire new targets by infrared. These units appear to be clustered around the larger air defence units. The first contacts are obtained at somewhat less than 15 nm. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgP.png
Loitering the Vigilantes at that distance to increase the scan time does not help. They need to approach to about 10 nm before any detailed information is available about these new enemy units. They are non-radiating, so our stand-off anti-radiation missiles are useless. Fortunately, they all have short-range weapons. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgQ.png
The new units:
KS-12 (85 mm) – 3.5 nm range
Grail missile – 2.3 nm range
ZU-23 guns – 1.4 nm range
All of these units can be safely picked off by the rocket-armed Corsairs. However, all of these units can shoot down our other bombers. There may be an altitude restriction (i.e. we will be safe if we bomb from high altitude), but I don’t know whether that is the case. High altitude goes from 2 nm to 11 nm. Horizontal bombing range is 1 nm. Lacking any other information, my standing orders, as suggested in the “Objective” section, are to attack these units only with the rocket-armed Corsairs.
These short-range air defence units appear to be clustered around all the major air defence units. Therefore, while we can’t see them yet, we should expect to find a heavy concentration of these units close to Thanh Hoa Bridge. They will keep our bombers away from the bridge, which is exactly what they are intended to do.
Status after 5 h 40 min
One pair of rocket-armed Corsairs was committed against Vietnamese air defence group ZR. 2 Grail units were destroyed, and some other units were damaged. No further attacks will happen against this group.
One pair of rocket-armed Corsairs (C) is standing by to attack Vietnamese air defence group ZT. This attack is aborted. There is no reason to risk these planes in attacking targets that have no effect on the main mission.
Vietnamese air defence group ZS will also be ignored.
All 3 independent air search radar units have been destroyed.
Two of the SA-2s have been mission killed (air search radar destroyed). Two are still active.
Two KS-19 batteries are waiting near Thanh Hoa Bridge. We are expecting many smaller air defence units to be there as well.
When the A-6Bs are available again, their Standard missiles will be used against the SA-2s and other radars. Their Shrikes will then be used against other radars, primarily the KS-19 radars.
After that, the Walleye-armed Intruders will attack the KS-19s.
After that, the rocket-armed Corsairs will attack targets in order to open up a clear corridor to the bridge for the bombers.
The KS-19, KS-12, and ZU-23 units all have 100 damage points. The Grail units all have 30 damage points.
One rocket-armed Corsair does about 12 x .4 x 8 = 38.4 damage. We have 12 of them. 3 of them together should do enough damage to take out a KS-19, KS-12, or ZU-23 in one shot. When attacking the KS-19 units, the Corsairs will operate in groups of 4 to minimize the number of shots the KS-19s will get. Reorganization of the Corsair groups as rockets are expended will be done depending on the tactical situation.
One Walleye-armed Intruder does about 2 x .6 x 63 = 75.6 damage. We have 2 of them, and they can safely attack the KS-19 units after the SA-2s are disabled.
Our anti-radar missiles do only small amounts of damage. Their only advantage is that they can destroy enemy radars at stand-off ranges.
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VictorInThePacific
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 am
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Phase 2, part 3
Nothing interesting happens for a while. All the light bombers head back to the Kitty Hawk at top speed for more weapons and fuel. One Vigilante scans the path the B-52s will fly, just in case there are any bad surprises there. 2 more enemy fighters get shot down. After this, our fighters have nothing left to do.
At 6 h 40 min, 2 Intruders have been re-ARMed and head for the combat zone at top speed. Wasting fuel is not a consideration now, but time is crucial, and the distance is short enough that we can do this even on just the internal fuel tanks. 10 min later, 2 more ARMed Intruders head out, followed by 2 Intruders with Walleyes. The B-52s start launching in pairs; they also travel at top speed. 5 min later, 2 groups of 4 Corsairs with rockets head out, followed by 2 pairs.
At 7 h 10 min, the Intruders (I) start shooting again. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgR2.png The last pair of Corsairs is just launching. The bomber stream consists of 12 B-52s, escorted by one Vigilante.
The first Standard missile destroys the AS radar of mobile SAM 3 (see Ground Attack Plan 3 map). The second Standard missile does serious damage to fixed SAM 1, destroying all its radars and some other systems. The next 2 Standard missiles are shot at a KS-19 battery but have no effect. Lacking better targets, the next 2 Standard missiles are shot at the airbase near Thanh Hoa Bridge. After that, only mobile SAM 1, AD battery ZS, and the units near Hanoi still have usable radars. None of these units are near enough to be able to defend Thanh Hoa Bridge, so they will be ignored.
The Walleyes have no effect. The Intruders head back to the Kitty Hawk at top speed.
Next the Corsairs have a go. The rockets work as expected, and the 12 Corsairs destroy 1 KS-19, 1 KS-12, 1 ZU-23, and 3 Grail units, as well as damaging some other units.
At 7 h 53 min, all of the defences SE of Thanh Hoa Bridge have been eliminated. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgS2.png However, there are still some units right at the bridge, and I don’t consider it appropriate to commit the bombers yet. It will take the Corsairs 2 hours to return to the Kitty Hawk for more ordnance and fuel and come back for another go, flying at top speed. Meanwhile, the bombers are parked nearby. They still have a huge loiter time. One tanker (T) is immediately available, but it will not be needed.
At 8 h, while in the process of manually resetting the ASW helicopter patrols, we get a sonar contact. This is odd, because the Vietnamese do NOT have subs. It is close, real close (5 nm)! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgT.png The fleet turns away from the contact, increasing speed to 15 kn. There are no inbound torpedoes, so there is no reason to panic – yet. One spare Sea King is sent to meet and greet the contact.
At 8 h 10 min, there is a surprising late kill. I guess ground units are also susceptible to critical damage (flooding ?). http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgU.png
At 8 h 14 min, we have identified the unknown sub. Since North Vietnam does not have subs, this one must be Russian-operated. Anyway, the Russians wouldn’t be letting this technology out of their hands at this time. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgV.png
Standing orders are: if it moves, kill it. If it gets too close, kill it. Any questions? Rule Britannia! Sure, this may cause an international incident, or worse, but we can always claim that it wasn’t our fault. Maybe they had a reactor accident? That’s plausible deniability.
Two torpedoes later … http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgW.png The fleet slows down to creep speed again.
At 8 h 55, another sub is detected. What is this, a convention? http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgX.png This one is 29 nm away. Send a Sea King. A fresh one, that is. The Sea King that has been hanging about, forgotten, for the past half hour has no torpedoes. However, it does have some sonobuoys left, so it can at least do some detecting.
16 min later, we know that this, too, is a Russian November-class sub. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgY.png This one is far enough away that it doesn’t present an immediate threat. But what if it gets away and later sneaks up on us? Better to kill it now and ask questions later.
Two torpedoes later … http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZ.png
In the meantime, starting at 9 h, all the bombers from the Kitty Hawk have been heading for Thanh Hoa Bridge. We will have enough time to do one more strike with rockets, but no more, so all the planes with only iron bombs are going to be in place so as to be immediately available when the rockets are expended. As they become available, all the rocket-armed Corsairs head for Thanh Hoa Bridge at top speed.
At 9 h 45 min, 4 Walleyes are on the way. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZA.png They destroy one KS-12. New enemy ground units are now present. These ones are actually moving.
At 10 h, the Corsairs have destroyed 1 Grail team at Thanh Hoa Bridge, 1 KS-19 nearby, and 1 moving Grail team. There are no longer any enemy units that can interfere with our bombers, as long as they approach Thanh Hoa Bridge from the SE. We still have plenty of rockets left over. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZB.png
Phase 3
We shoot 14 rockets at the bridge itself, doing 3% damage. This is about 36 points. One B-52 does about 9 times as much damage as this, so 4 B-52s should be plenty.
B-52s over Thanh Hoa Bridge. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZC.png
2 B-52s suffice. No more Thanh Hoa Bridge. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZD.png
The victory screen after PhotoShop. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZD-m.png
My tactical brilliance and decisive strategy … I like that.
In real life, it wasn’t so easy. Or maybe they didn’t use decisive strategy or brilliant tactics. “Between 1965 and 1972, during the Vietnam war, it was the objective of many unsuccessful attacks by US Air Force and US Navy aircraft. Eventually, in 1972, it was destroyed by A-7 Corsair bombers using laser-guided bombs and conventional bombs.” and “the US recognizes the loss of only 11 aircraft during attacks against the bridge” and “873 air sorties were expended against the bridge and it was hit by hundreds of bombs and missiles before being finally destroyed.”
(From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanh_Hoa_Bridge)
Notes
One comment that doesn’t really fit in anywhere else. The Phantoms totally own the MiG-17Fs, which only have guns, MiG-19s, and MiG-21MFs, because their missiles outrange all the enemy weapons. However, anyone putting a Phantom mano-a-mano against a MiG-17F in a dogfight will be getting an unpleasant surprise. In Harpoon, anyway, and I have no reason to believe that that is unrealistic.
Nothing interesting happens for a while. All the light bombers head back to the Kitty Hawk at top speed for more weapons and fuel. One Vigilante scans the path the B-52s will fly, just in case there are any bad surprises there. 2 more enemy fighters get shot down. After this, our fighters have nothing left to do.
At 6 h 40 min, 2 Intruders have been re-ARMed and head for the combat zone at top speed. Wasting fuel is not a consideration now, but time is crucial, and the distance is short enough that we can do this even on just the internal fuel tanks. 10 min later, 2 more ARMed Intruders head out, followed by 2 Intruders with Walleyes. The B-52s start launching in pairs; they also travel at top speed. 5 min later, 2 groups of 4 Corsairs with rockets head out, followed by 2 pairs.
At 7 h 10 min, the Intruders (I) start shooting again. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgR2.png The last pair of Corsairs is just launching. The bomber stream consists of 12 B-52s, escorted by one Vigilante.
The first Standard missile destroys the AS radar of mobile SAM 3 (see Ground Attack Plan 3 map). The second Standard missile does serious damage to fixed SAM 1, destroying all its radars and some other systems. The next 2 Standard missiles are shot at a KS-19 battery but have no effect. Lacking better targets, the next 2 Standard missiles are shot at the airbase near Thanh Hoa Bridge. After that, only mobile SAM 1, AD battery ZS, and the units near Hanoi still have usable radars. None of these units are near enough to be able to defend Thanh Hoa Bridge, so they will be ignored.
The Walleyes have no effect. The Intruders head back to the Kitty Hawk at top speed.
Next the Corsairs have a go. The rockets work as expected, and the 12 Corsairs destroy 1 KS-19, 1 KS-12, 1 ZU-23, and 3 Grail units, as well as damaging some other units.
At 7 h 53 min, all of the defences SE of Thanh Hoa Bridge have been eliminated. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgS2.png However, there are still some units right at the bridge, and I don’t consider it appropriate to commit the bombers yet. It will take the Corsairs 2 hours to return to the Kitty Hawk for more ordnance and fuel and come back for another go, flying at top speed. Meanwhile, the bombers are parked nearby. They still have a huge loiter time. One tanker (T) is immediately available, but it will not be needed.
At 8 h, while in the process of manually resetting the ASW helicopter patrols, we get a sonar contact. This is odd, because the Vietnamese do NOT have subs. It is close, real close (5 nm)! http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgT.png The fleet turns away from the contact, increasing speed to 15 kn. There are no inbound torpedoes, so there is no reason to panic – yet. One spare Sea King is sent to meet and greet the contact.
At 8 h 10 min, there is a surprising late kill. I guess ground units are also susceptible to critical damage (flooding ?). http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgU.png
At 8 h 14 min, we have identified the unknown sub. Since North Vietnam does not have subs, this one must be Russian-operated. Anyway, the Russians wouldn’t be letting this technology out of their hands at this time. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgV.png
Standing orders are: if it moves, kill it. If it gets too close, kill it. Any questions? Rule Britannia! Sure, this may cause an international incident, or worse, but we can always claim that it wasn’t our fault. Maybe they had a reactor accident? That’s plausible deniability.
Two torpedoes later … http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgW.png The fleet slows down to creep speed again.
At 8 h 55, another sub is detected. What is this, a convention? http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgX.png This one is 29 nm away. Send a Sea King. A fresh one, that is. The Sea King that has been hanging about, forgotten, for the past half hour has no torpedoes. However, it does have some sonobuoys left, so it can at least do some detecting.
16 min later, we know that this, too, is a Russian November-class sub. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgY.png This one is far enough away that it doesn’t present an immediate threat. But what if it gets away and later sneaks up on us? Better to kill it now and ask questions later.
Two torpedoes later … http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZ.png
In the meantime, starting at 9 h, all the bombers from the Kitty Hawk have been heading for Thanh Hoa Bridge. We will have enough time to do one more strike with rockets, but no more, so all the planes with only iron bombs are going to be in place so as to be immediately available when the rockets are expended. As they become available, all the rocket-armed Corsairs head for Thanh Hoa Bridge at top speed.
At 9 h 45 min, 4 Walleyes are on the way. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZA.png They destroy one KS-12. New enemy ground units are now present. These ones are actually moving.
At 10 h, the Corsairs have destroyed 1 Grail team at Thanh Hoa Bridge, 1 KS-19 nearby, and 1 moving Grail team. There are no longer any enemy units that can interfere with our bombers, as long as they approach Thanh Hoa Bridge from the SE. We still have plenty of rockets left over. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZB.png
Phase 3
We shoot 14 rockets at the bridge itself, doing 3% damage. This is about 36 points. One B-52 does about 9 times as much damage as this, so 4 B-52s should be plenty.
B-52s over Thanh Hoa Bridge. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZC.png
2 B-52s suffice. No more Thanh Hoa Bridge. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZD.png
The victory screen after PhotoShop. http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgZD-m.png
My tactical brilliance and decisive strategy … I like that.
In real life, it wasn’t so easy. Or maybe they didn’t use decisive strategy or brilliant tactics. “Between 1965 and 1972, during the Vietnam war, it was the objective of many unsuccessful attacks by US Air Force and US Navy aircraft. Eventually, in 1972, it was destroyed by A-7 Corsair bombers using laser-guided bombs and conventional bombs.” and “the US recognizes the loss of only 11 aircraft during attacks against the bridge” and “873 air sorties were expended against the bridge and it was hit by hundreds of bombs and missiles before being finally destroyed.”
(From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanh_Hoa_Bridge)
Notes
One comment that doesn’t really fit in anywhere else. The Phantoms totally own the MiG-17Fs, which only have guns, MiG-19s, and MiG-21MFs, because their missiles outrange all the enemy weapons. However, anyone putting a Phantom mano-a-mano against a MiG-17F in a dogfight will be getting an unpleasant surprise. In Harpoon, anyway, and I have no reason to believe that that is unrealistic.
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Great AAR. Thanks for sharing it.
Afaik, they didn't unleash the mighty B-52 against Thanh Hoa either. Perhaps they should have, though admittedly, the LGB is widely considered the decisive factor in knocking the bridge off its abutment. Its worthy of note that its compatriot, the Paul Doumer Bridge, was knocked down several times but just as quickly repaired. You really need to Destroy (capital D) a bridge when your enemy is adept at moving supplies by oxcart. [;)]
(Emphasis mine)ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific
In real life, it wasn’t so easy. Or maybe they didn’t use decisive strategy or brilliant tactics. “Between 1965 and 1972, during the Vietnam war, it was the objective of many unsuccessful attacks by US Air Force and US Navy aircraft. Eventually, in 1972, it was destroyed by A-7 Corsair bombers using laser-guided bombs and conventional bombs.” and “the US recognizes the loss of only 11 aircraft during attacks against the bridge” and “873 air sorties were expended against the bridge and it was hit by hundreds of bombs and missiles before being finally destroyed.” (From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanh_Hoa_Bridge)
Afaik, they didn't unleash the mighty B-52 against Thanh Hoa either. Perhaps they should have, though admittedly, the LGB is widely considered the decisive factor in knocking the bridge off its abutment. Its worthy of note that its compatriot, the Paul Doumer Bridge, was knocked down several times but just as quickly repaired. You really need to Destroy (capital D) a bridge when your enemy is adept at moving supplies by oxcart. [;)]
Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Nice approach and writeup VitP! As Brad noted, irl the B-52s weren't (that any of us could find) used for that bridge work but I wanted to see them used and felt they were a good excuse to have the Vigilantes in play. The carrier aircraft could have done the entire job but it wouldn't imho have been as fun or as challenging that way.
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VictorInThePacific
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 am
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
Some comments and questions about the RA-5C Vigilante (recon)
I showed the following in the AAR and am emphasizing it here. There are 2 differences between the 2 screenshots below. The second screenshot is 18 s later, game time, and a Vigilante is just launching. Its sensors are so good that it detects a whole batch of new targets hundreds of miles away.
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgB.png
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgC.png
It would be nice if this ability of the Vigilante were written down somewhere that an ordinary player could see.
The Vigilante is also fast enough to get away from most threats,if used judiciously.
The Vigilante can also detect ground units that do not emit radar waves at about 15 nm, but I don't know if it does this any better than other aircraft eg. Corsairs or Intruders.
In any case, it is clear that the Vigilante fulfills a very important function in this (or any similar) scenario, and no other unit in the OB can do it.
I would rate the following aircraft in order of importance in this scenario:
1) Phantoms
2) Vigilantes : best all-round detectors (and radar jammer !).
3) Hawkeyes : to ensure detection of aircraft.
4) A-6Bs (SEAD) : to knock out SA-2 radars.
5) Corsairs with rockets : to safely take out short-range AD units.
If any of the above were missing, casualties would have been extremely high. After that,
6) Bombers : the ones that carry a heavy payload but have to deliver it at point-blank range. We had a dozen B-52s and a dozen A-6As and a dozen Corsairs. While the B-52s do more than twice as much damage as the smaller planes, 8 Intruders or Corsairs would still have knocked out the bridge in one go. We would have needed about 32 rocket-armed Corsairs to do that.
Useful but not critical:
7) Tankers
Hardly useful at all:
8) Intruders with LGB : there simply weren't enough of them to make a difference. The only time these were useful is after the SA-2s were knocked out but before the short-range AD units were eliminated.
I showed the following in the AAR and am emphasizing it here. There are 2 differences between the 2 screenshots below. The second screenshot is 18 s later, game time, and a Vigilante is just launching. Its sensors are so good that it detects a whole batch of new targets hundreds of miles away.
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgB.png
http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/VictorInThePacific/bridge/brdgC.png
It would be nice if this ability of the Vigilante were written down somewhere that an ordinary player could see.
The Vigilante is also fast enough to get away from most threats,if used judiciously.
The Vigilante can also detect ground units that do not emit radar waves at about 15 nm, but I don't know if it does this any better than other aircraft eg. Corsairs or Intruders.
In any case, it is clear that the Vigilante fulfills a very important function in this (or any similar) scenario, and no other unit in the OB can do it.
I would rate the following aircraft in order of importance in this scenario:
1) Phantoms
2) Vigilantes : best all-round detectors (and radar jammer !).
3) Hawkeyes : to ensure detection of aircraft.
4) A-6Bs (SEAD) : to knock out SA-2 radars.
5) Corsairs with rockets : to safely take out short-range AD units.
If any of the above were missing, casualties would have been extremely high. After that,
6) Bombers : the ones that carry a heavy payload but have to deliver it at point-blank range. We had a dozen B-52s and a dozen A-6As and a dozen Corsairs. While the B-52s do more than twice as much damage as the smaller planes, 8 Intruders or Corsairs would still have knocked out the bridge in one go. We would have needed about 32 rocket-armed Corsairs to do that.
Useful but not critical:
7) Tankers
Hardly useful at all:
8) Intruders with LGB : there simply weren't enough of them to make a difference. The only time these were useful is after the SA-2s were knocked out but before the short-range AD units were eliminated.
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Anonymous
RE: WestPac 7 - Thanh Hoa Bridge
VitP,
you AARs are most impressing. There´s always been talk about "monster SCENARIOS", but you´ve introduced "monster AARs" - great stuff and fun to read!
Regards,
Ralf
you AARs are most impressing. There´s always been talk about "monster SCENARIOS", but you´ve introduced "monster AARs" - great stuff and fun to read!
Regards,
Ralf