The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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Curtis Lemay
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Meyer1
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Is that change log complete?
I just wonder because FitE2 was said to be testing under the patch in development but afaik it needed some limits in the game shifted like max units etc. and I don't see this in the change log.

Yes, it's complete. FITE2 was testing what at the time was called 3.5. That has morphed into TOAW IV. We intentionally named this patch 3.4.1 to avoid confusion with that.

"We"? Are you part of the development team now? Who else?

I am. I'm sure that if I try to list everyone in it I'll miss someone and there's a long list of members that have dropped out of sight. So, it's kind of amorphous. Erik & Ralph, obviously. Then the testers include Larry and Steve - among many others.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Meyer1 »

Thanks Bob, good to know.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Lobster »

Let me see if I understand this correctly. We were going to get a nice patch with some great improvements for free (would have gladly paid $10). Now we are only getting a few bug fixes and one or two improvements. Then around Xmas (good marketing idea) we are getting 'TOAWIV' which is mostly the patch we were originally supposed to get. And, this is merely an assumption, based on Matrix pricing, we will have to pay $30 to $40 bucks for our used to be patch. Does that fairly cover it?
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Meyer1 »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Let me see if I understand this correctly. We were going to get a nice patch with some great improvements for free (would have gladly paid $10). Now we are only getting a few bug fixes and one or two improvements. Then around Xmas (good marketing idea) we are getting 'TOAWIV' which is mostly the patch we were originally supposed to get. And, this is merely an assumption, based on Matrix pricing, we will have to pay $30 to $40 bucks for our used to be patch. Does that fairly cover it?


Well, looks like we are getting something more than a patch, don't know how much. I would expect at least some interface overhaul, very needed IMHO. I don't think that was scheduled for 3.5. Nor a new naval combat model.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Let me see if I understand this correctly. We were going to get a nice patch with some great improvements for free (would have gladly paid $10). Now we are only getting a few bug fixes and one or two improvements. Then around Xmas (good marketing idea) we are getting 'TOAWIV' which is mostly the patch we were originally supposed to get. And, this is merely an assumption, based on Matrix pricing, we will have to pay $30 to $40 bucks for our used to be patch. Does that fairly cover it?

Yes. Though I don't know anything about pricing. I would only point out that TOAW III came out about the same time as WitP. How long has WitP:AE been out? TOAW III has had enough free updates. Ralph has worked long and hard on this. He deserves to be rewarded for it.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by larryfulkerson »

Ralph has worked long and hard on this. He deserves to be rewarded for it.
I concur on the long and hard part. I think he should be rewarded at least this one time or he may move on to
greener pastures. Then we'd have to break in another excellent programmer. Do you have
any idea how difficult that could be? Best we pay Ralph and like it, I say.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Lobster »

Like I said, I would have been more than happy to pay $10 for the patch. Same price companies like Battlefront charge for their upgrades to their games. It's a fair price and should have been applied to all of the patch upgrades. I'm just hoping this isn't priced as a new game for $30 or $40 when it was supposed to be a patch/upgrade. I also never said anything negative about Ralph. I know he's worked hard. How anyone could assume I thought otherwise is a head scratcher since I never implied anything of the sort.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by BigDuke66 »

Surely Ralph deserves it but the "disappointment" should be easy to understand by anyone, first a lot players & designers have left the game and the community shrunk what is no wonder as it was left without fixes to serious problem for 4,5 years that went so far that unofficial fixes went alive, and all the while there was talk about something behind the curtain that should have been so damned pretty as the hottest chick on this planet.
Now this rather "average" babe comes out and declares that a real hot chick will show up shortly and that it looks similar but somehow better, but that you have to pay again to get back into the Titty Twister 2.0.
I doubt that this works out as only the grognards will come back as they have never really been away, and they will be happy enough to get a chick at all no matter how "average" she is as they are simply are to old & horny to wait for any "scheduled" chick.

From a marketing point of view it's a disaster, the shrunk community is surely not the best for future endeavors, if fixes would have been released years back it would have kept the ball rolling and TOAWIV could have taken up the momentum, now it seems TOAW IV must restart from scratch and that will not be easy for such a game as it's not 2006 anymore.

Anyhow I'm glad TOAWIII is playable again and I'm looking forward to finally play some scenarios that I had too long postponed.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by secadegas »

I'm glad TOAWIII is playable again and I'm looking forward to finally play some scenarios that I had too long postponed.

This myth of TOAW 3.4 unplayability is as resilient as it is absolutely wrong.

Just because some people took the option not to play 3.4 version or/and its fix it doesn't mean other people didn' play or design a lot taking great fun from it over the last couple of years.

Now, thanks to the efforts of the same team that is the responsible for keeping this game alive, we have a new patch and a promise of a new version in a near future and that's hardly bad news.





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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by sPzAbt653 »

... doesn't mean other people didn' play or design a lot taking great fun from it over the last couple of years.

Cheers to that, I haven't lost any precious TOAW time over the past few years due to what some haters trumped up into 'unplayability'.
we have a new patch and a promise of a new version in a near future and that's hardly bad news.

If anyone is disappointed in the new patch, just forget about it and focus on the bolded part. Reread Daniele's post and let it sink in. I'll recap - TOAW IV !! And a commitment to deliver within a few months from now. Not 'soon', but an actual time frame. How friggin' exciting is that ??

And thanks to Ralph, Bob, Erik and Matrix for making all this possible. [&o]
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Lobster »

Much if not most of TOAWIV is the 3.5(3.6) patch. So yes, the fact that the patch is now being presented as a whole new game is disappointing. Disappointing in that there MIGHT, emphasis on MIGHT, be a cost that a truly new game would garner. That Ralph will get some monetary compensation is nothing but good. He deserves it. No one who has been following this patch over the last few years can argue that. Another frustrating part is that, if Matrix had offered to pay Ralph in the first place this would have been done long ago. I think we all offered to pay for the patch at some point.

Now, someone mentioned haters. Define haters. Are disappointed people haters? People who have a point of view that differs from the accusers point of view? People who devote hundreds if not thousands of hours on the game, either playing it, editing it, designing scenarios? I would like to know exactly what the accuser thinks a hater is.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by BigDuke66 »

The "myth" is clearly confirmed when looking at the list of fixes, alone the fixes to the RFC and AA obviously show how bad the state was before that alone made a bunch of scenarios work not like intended, not to mention all the other things that got fixed.
And as I said the hardcore stayed or will come back but what about the rest, I see how small the activity is on a wargame club that covers TOAWIII and there is no doubt that it was much better before the problems with the old patch got know to the community, it's simply a fact the the course of actions or rather the lack of actions damaged the community, we will see if it can rebuild on the Patch and maybe on the next title, this all is also nothing new as that was mentioned again and again in most of the past threads that asked about the patch & progress on this game.

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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by larryfulkerson »

Much if not most of TOAWIV is the 3.5(3.6) patch. So yes, the fact that the patch is now being presented as a whole new game is disappointing. Disappointing in that there MIGHT, emphasis on MIGHT, be a cost that a truly new game would garner.
I think I know a little bit about how disappointed you all must feel. I'm all ears to a better delivery though.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Oberst_Klink »

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

The "myth" is clearly confirmed when looking at the list of fixes, alone the fixes to the RFC and AA obviously show how bad the state was before that alone made a bunch of scenarios work not like intended, not to mention all the other things that got fixed.
And as I said the hardcore stayed or will come back but what about the rest, I see how small the activity is on a wargame club that covers TOAWIII and there is no doubt that it was much better before the problems with the old patch got know to the community, it's simply a fact the the course of actions or rather the lack of actions damaged the community, we will see if it can rebuild on the Patch and maybe on the next title, this all is also nothing new as that was mentioned again and again in most of the past threads that asked about the patch & progress on this game.

C'mon, last of the Wilds. Enjoy my contribution with CFant, Ammann and Pickett playing ye'ole Stevo's D21 as a gigantic RPG at the SI-Forum.

Besides, I might resume my work on Kharkov '43... for the patch. Just a tad disappointed I can't be on the TOAW IV team to deliver a 2.5km/hex half-day/turn version of it :/

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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Cmdr_Vessery »

So, I gotta ask, does this version 3.4.1.9 fix the AA issue that was addressed with using the 3XBb mod? And, all games running under 3.4 won't work when starting up 3.4.1.9, or will they "convert"?

Looking forward to starting up a new TGW game, now that it's in the "Official" list of new scenarios.

Thanks,

-Vess
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

The "myth" is clearly confirmed when looking at the list of fixes, alone the fixes to the RFC and AA obviously show how bad the state was before that alone made a bunch of scenarios work not like intended, not to mention all the other things that got fixed.
And as I said the hardcore stayed or will come back but what about the rest, I see how small the activity is on a wargame club that covers TOAWIII and there is no doubt that it was much better before the problems with the old patch got know to the community, it's simply a fact the the course of actions or rather the lack of actions damaged the community, we will see if it can rebuild on the Patch and maybe on the next title, this all is also nothing new as that was mentioned again and again in most of the past threads that asked about the patch & progress on this game.

C'mon, last of the Wilds. Enjoy my contribution with CFant, Ammann and Pickett playing ye'ole Stevo's D21 as a gigantic RPG at the SI-Forum.

Besides, I might resume my work on Kharkov '43... for the patch. Just a tad disappointed I can't be on the TOAW IV team to deliver a 2.5km/hex half-day/turn version of it :/

Klink, Oberst

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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by SMK-at-work »

Jeezzz.....I'm surprised people are actually griping about this...and a little disappointed....seems like "we" are an ungrateful bunch!
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

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ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Jeezzz.....I'm surprised people are actually griping about this...and a little disappointed....seems like "we" are an ungrateful bunch!

No one is ungrateful. There was a bait and switch, that's all. We have been told for years we were getting steak and then, bam, we get hot dogs. If people were told, for YEARS, they were getting something only to find out in the end they were not getting it how surprising could it be that they would be disappointed? I would wonder about those that were not even slightly disappointed that the promise was broken or about those that can't understand why some would be disappointed.

Some will turn their back on the game, some will get over it. Life goes on.
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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by fogger »

Is the glass half full or is it half empty?

Lets look at the facts. We got 4 patches for free and if we had been charged US$10 per patch then we would have paid US$40 which appears to be the US price for a new game.

We know that what was originally planned as the update got to big and will now be used as the base for TOAW4. That means that Matrix are going to sell the game which means that they get cashflow from which they will be able to pay people (Ralph) to work on the new game. I believe Ralph has the same expensive habit that I have. It is called "eating".

Now Matrix is in business to make a profit and Christmas is a good time to market a new product. So they will be trying to have TOAW4 ready for Christmas. Having tested FITE2 which used "3.6" I believe that there is a good chance that we will have TOAW4 for Christmas.

My only "bitch" is that I could not prepay for TOAW4 when the A$1 was buying US1.12. Now one A$1 is purchasing US$0.75 and is dropping. The RBA wants the A$1 to be in the US$0.65 to US$0.70 range.

But it could be worse. I could live in New Zealand where "SMK-At-Work" lives. At present one A$1 is buying NZ$1.10 so I would hate to think what he will have to pay. So you can understand why my next holiday in September will be in New Zealand (North Island) and not in the USA.

Now as for the people who have dropped out. There is nothing stopping anybody who has read this post from contacting them and inviting them back to what is shortly to become the 2nd best game in the world. If TOAW4 is standing on the shoulders of TOAW3 then it will take the title of being the best game in the world.


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RE: The Operational Art of War III receives a final update… and a sequel!

Post by Lobster »

I also have the eating habit. Unlike you I am no longer able to work and have very little wiggle room for anything other than meds, shelter and food. This is called life. So, excuse me if I'm a bit disappointed I didn't get what was promised. End of Story. Bye bye.
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