Comments on Historical Naval Losses in MWIF Turns

[warspite1]

1943 now completed for the named ship counters (subject to any errors that people may find).

[Orm]

Picture of HMS Klas Uggla (4)​ sinking. See Sep/Oct 1941 for details. Although, I am sure, that an Englishman would name her differently.

HMS_Klas_Uggla_(4)_sinking.jpg (193.98 KiB) Viewed 440 times

[Orm]

Picture of HMS Göteborg (J5)​ that was bottomed in the same turmoil, but repaired and had a long career afterwards.

HMS-Göteborg-J5-destroyer-in-the-Swedish-Navy-352042733150.jpg (261.16 KiB) Viewed 439 times

I just had to post a picture of such beauty.

[Courtenay]

Just wanted to point out that the initial damage to Chicago was in a night air attack.

[warspite1]

I've decided that I will include named counters in my Un-named counters list of losses.

I've started with the Norwegian navy as my test run. Norway had a fair sized navy and continued in the war post Norway's conquest. I have kept Norway's losses in the Minor category post Norway's conquest in order to keep things simpler.

I'm probably about half way through Norway at present so should have this completed in no more than a couple of weeks. I will then move on to Poland, followed by the Netherlands and then Belgium and Denmark.

[warspite1]

Well you learn something new everyday!! When does a German (originally Norwegian built) get sunk by a Norwegian (originally German built) aircraft?

The Norwegian Minelayer Uller was captured by the Germans on 9 April 1940 and employed by the Kriegsmarine. She was laying mines in Sognefjord a couple of weeks later (in German service) and was bombed and sunk by the Norwegians....flying an He-115......

Funny old game eh?

[Orm]

Well you learn something new everyday!! When does a German (originally Norwegian built) get sunk by a Norwegian (originally German built) aircraft?

The Norwegian Minelayer Uller was captured by the Germans on 9 April 1940 and employed by the Kriegsmarine. She was laying mines in Sognefjord a couple of weeks later (in German service) and was bombed and sunk by the Norwegians....flying an He-115......

Funny old game eh?

You said it.

And thank you for sharing that odd event.

[Orm]

It would be useful to add merchant losses - even if just by tonnage and then put this into MWIF counter terms. Maybe that is something for the future. In the meantime, to ensure this gets finished, I want to keep it manageable and we shall see if I've achieved that goal when we get into 1942.....

It would be awesome if this could be achieved as well. I understand that it is an enormous task.

However, I am wondering if this could be sneaked in for the minors when you do them? Not sure how much extra work that would entail. I thouroughly enjoy reading up on the Norway 'unnamed' losses at the moment. And it would be even more... well... More everything if the merchant marine losses were included. Even only by tonnage/turn.

Thank you for your hard work. I truly appreciate it.

[Orm]

Regarding the loss of HMS Royal Oak.

the loss of this elderly battleship was worth nothing more than propaganda value to the German war effort.

Could she not have been used for close convoy protection? Or for shore bombardment missions? Or, if she survived, would she have spent the remainder of her career in port? Any thoughts on her fate if she had not been sunk?

Not arguing about your conclusion that her sinking was just propaganda worth for the German side. Just interested what her role would have been. Would it have been worth the extra cost to use her in a limited role?

[Orm]

Recently read up on the "Kvarstad vessels" and thus my interest in what happened to the Norwegian merchant fleet was tickled. And your telling above about the weird fate of the Norwegian minelayer made me thing that even the smallest of ships has a story worthy of an entire book in itself. The story, for example, for MV Gay Viking (built as HMMGB 506) seems to be amazing. The wiki version I just read leaves to much to the imagination. Straight out of a spy novel.

HMS_Gay_Viking.jpg (7.08 KiB) Viewed 294 times

Picture from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Gay_Viking

[warspite1]

It would be useful to add merchant losses - even if just by tonnage and then put this into MWIF counter terms. Maybe that is something for the future. In the meantime, to ensure this gets finished, I want to keep it manageable and we shall see if I've achieved that goal when we get into 1942.....

It would be awesome if this could be achieved as well. I understand that it is an enormous task.

However, I am wondering if this could be sneaked in for the minors when you do them? Not sure how much extra work that would entail. I thouroughly enjoy reading up on the Norway 'unnamed' losses at the moment. And it would be even more... well... More everything if the merchant marine losses were included. Even only by tonnage/turn.

warspite1

I will certainly think about it. I am doing some more detailed work on the U-boat losses and this may give a good basis for names and numbers (at least on a tonnage/turn basis) which could be used here.

I think the first thing I need to do is work out how much work a lot of these navies will be where I don't have a second or third source for the smaller vessels. I will have more of an idea once I've finished the Polish and Netherlands minor navies, and the French navy - which I think will be the first major power I do.

[warspite1]

Regarding the loss of HMS Royal Oak.

the loss of this elderly battleship was worth nothing more than propaganda value to the German war effort.

Could she not have been used for close convoy protection? Or for shore bombardment missions? Or, if she survived, would she have spent the remainder of her career in port? Any thoughts on her fate if she had not been sunk?

Not arguing about your conclusion that her sinking was just propaganda worth for the German side. Just interested what her role would have been. Would it have been worth the extra cost to use her in a limited role?

warspite1

I am positive that, had she survived the attack, the RN would have found gainful employment for Royal Oak - in similar fashion to her sisters. This employment would have been in secondary roles as the R-Class weren't really frontline vessels and their employment was limited for their own protection.

Had it been possible for Prien to find, and sink, a Queen Elizabeth-class, a Nelson-class or Renown or possibly Hood instead, then the effect would have been more both from a propaganda point of view, but also operationally.

[warspite1]

Recently read up on the "Kvarstad vessels" and thus my interest in what happened to the Norwegian merchant fleet was tickled. And your telling above about the weird fate of the Norwegian minelayer made me thing that even the smallest of ships has a story worthy of an entire book in itself. The story, for example, for MV Gay Viking (built as HMMGB 506) seems to be amazing. The wiki version I just read leaves to much to the imagination. Straight out of a spy novel.

warspite1

Indeed. I would like to think that - what is effectively just a list of ship names and numbers - will pique interest in episodes of WWII that aren't necessarily well known. The Norwegian Campaign, as one example, is incredibly interesting. I think its right that the 'minors', conquered by the Axis, get their story across - not least because many continued the fight after the fall of their countries - often in ships lent by the Commonwealth/US, but in some cases their own naval vessels. Similarly the 'Axis minor' navies have some interesting stories of their own that are often relegated by their 'controlling' power. The Vichy navy too has some very interesting episodes to tell.

[warspite1]

Thank you for your hard work. I truly appreciate it.

warspite1

It's a labour of love

Almost finished the first of my three 'test' navies. These are test navies in that I have varying degrees of sources for each. All navies have Conways as my base source, but this source is not infallible and even if it was, can only provide a certain amount of info. I have one other source for Poland, a couple for the Netherlands and a more comprehensive source for Norway. The named, 'bigger' and/or more important ships/boats are usually not much of a problem, but the smaller vessels mean considerable work and fact checking to try and get right.

But the naval war is soooo damn interesting, its proving good fun doing it this way. It would have been impossible to finish the project for un-named vessels using a spreadsheet. And including the named ships should hopefully keep the interest for those whose interest in naval warfare is confined to the 'big beasts'.

[warspite1]

So the first navy - Poland - is now done (subject to any comments).

[warspite1]

So the second navy - Romania - is now done (subject to any comments).

[Courtenay]

In the M/J '40 Minors section, the capture of the destroyer HNoMS Troll is reported. I had never heard of the Troll, but I think that may be the best ship name that I have ever seen. (In Norwegian, "troll" means, um, "troll".) In 1940, Troll was 30 years old, and was still coal fired. The Germans did use her, but not as a destroyer. They took off her whole superstructure, and used her as a distillation and steam supply ship.

Later the Norwegian navy would have a second ship named Troll, but unfortunately no longer has one.

[warspite1]

The Germans did use her, but not as a destroyer. They took off her whole superstructure, and used her as a distillation and steam supply ship.

warspite1

Yes, because of the age/condition of many captured vessels (not to mention German requirements/capabilities), the Germans did not employ all captured ships - and those employed were sometimes used in different roles. Troll was iniitallly used as an escort before the conversion mentioned above, that took place in 1941.