AA in Land Combat useless?

[stjeand]

Should AA do anything in land combat when air attack is used?

I would assume so...just like if you try to soften up a target but I have noticed that it will never shoot down a single air unit.

I have just tested 8 attacks on a single hex with 6AA and never did a single air unit get shot down...
NO matter HOW bad the odds that should not happen.

[AlvaroSousa]

Yea it should work. Works by the same principle as AA on land.

[AlvaroSousa]

It's the same mechanism as the AA on land.

[stjeand]

Well others can test...but it does not appear to work.

I have tested and never seen a single air unit shot down by AA.

Should be shooting down tons of air...especially early.

[stjeand]

Quick way to reproduce...

Start 1939 game, any.
Germany Turn 1...move all units away from Danzig so they will not cause a ZOC.
Move a single division into Danzig.
Declare war on Denmark.
Redeploy 6 AA from anywhere in Germany.

Allies Turn 1
Move two Polish corps next to Danzig.
Move a few other Polish units into Germany to take some territory to redeploy the UK bombers.
Move 2 UK bombers to Denmark to be redeployed to be in range of Danzig.

Germany Turn 2
Deploy 6 AA in Danzig

Allies Turn 2
Move UK bombers to Poland / German territory captured by Poland

Germany Turn 3
End turn

Allies Turn 3
SAVE game so you can perform the test multiple times.
You can do two things here.

Option 1.
Set all bombers, 2 UK and 1 Polish to support
Attack Danzig 6 times with the Polish forces.
Outcome
You will see 0 air shot down 100% of the time.

Option 2
Ground attack the unit in Danzig with the 3 bombers.
Outcome
You will lose multiple bombers, likely 1 per attack.



Overall...I did 3 tests of each.

Option 1
First test 0 bombers lost.
Second test 0 bombers lost.
Third test 0 bombers lost.

Option 2
First test, 7 bombers lost.
Second test, 13 bombers lost.
Third test, 12 bombers lost.

Clearly
AA is not supporting the defending units.

[AlvaroSousa]

They take hits. I just tested the 1944 scenario. They just don't take them often.

Usually the land unit lowers the effectiveness.

Western Allies lost 4 air attacking all land units not on cities

On cities they take more due to the AA in the city

[stjeand]

You only lose if the unit defending has built in AA...and from time to time you will lose 1 air.
I believe that the land attack is not taking into account AA in the hex, just the AA value of the unit being attacked.
So a unit defending in a hex with 6 AA and a build in value of 1 should have 7 AA...
But in combat they appear to have just 1 AA.


Try the 39 scenario...and you have to attack with land units and air in support.
Took me 2 minutes to set up and I just keep loading it to prove they won't lose more air.

So you will always take 0 hits.

I have attacked city with AA...and they take 0 hits as shown above.
0 losses.
Please just run the 39 test...you can attack 10 games in a row...and you will not have the losses expected.

[AlvaroSousa]

I did and you don't lose any. It's rare. I will look again. It's the same system since the start.

[stjeand]

Rare?
I tried 20+ attacks...0 air loss.
6 AA x 20 attacks, 50% chance to "hit", average would 60.
So you are saying the air has 60 "saves"?
That is not rare that would be impossible.

When I attack the hex directly with air it is rare to not lose an air unit.
I think 1 out of 12 attacks an air unit was not lost.

I still believe it is ignoring the AA and just using the "unit" AA value.
And yes this has always been the case but I never paid attention because honestly it is rare to attack a hex directly with land that contained AA until the Russians and Allies reach Germany.

And sadly few games go that far.

[topolm]

To check, you need to bomb a cavalry unit of '39 that does not have its own air defense
Then ground-based air defense shoots down the bombers

[stjeand]

Thanks Topolm...I forgot they have 0 AA defense.


My test was against a 1939 German division...and never did they shoot down an air unit. That is more luck overall...then again they only have 1 AA.
But the 6 AA in the hex should be at least shooting down something.

It consistently does if you just bomb the unit.

[stjeand]

Al did you happen to find anything around this yet?

Something is definately not right.

[AlvaroSousa]

I have not looked yet since I can't update the game for another several months.

[stjeand]

I have not looked yet since I can't update the game for another several months.

No worries I trust you will check when you can.

I just want to be sure it gets fixed for WP II