Game Balance
Moderator: AlvaroSousa
- AlvaroSousa
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Game Balance
Taking another poll on if everyone feels the game is balanced to see if anything has to be tweaked.
As everyone should know balancing a game like this is very difficult and it takes time. We make small adjustments as we go to make sure as many games as possible gets completed on the last turn of 1945 assuming skills are equal. I feel those games are the best games as the excitement last till the end like a good book.
As everyone should know balancing a game like this is very difficult and it takes time. We make small adjustments as we go to make sure as many games as possible gets completed on the last turn of 1945 assuming skills are equal. I feel those games are the best games as the excitement last till the end like a good book.
Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific
Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific
Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
- PanzerMike
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Re: Game Balance
Stupid question: balance for human vs human I presume?
Re: Game Balance
I am playing two games as Allies with latest patch. Both currently in 1940 so I won't vote right now.
Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
- MagicMissile
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Re: Game Balance
I voted that the game has an axis bias. I base this mainly on my two latest games. One PBEM and one (something I have never done before) hotseat game where I played against myself.
I have a feeling based on forum activity that the game is being played less (I might be wrong) but if anyone still play vs human opponents is there anyone who actually wins as the allies against a similarly skilled opponent without using a somewhat gamey strategy like the UK all in in France?
My opinion is that the German economy and manpower numbers especially manpower are too high. There is no deterioration of the German army. Come 1944 the German force limit is fully built out and the units are way stronger than the allied units. With the nerfing of air units (happened a long time ago) it is really hard for the allies to make any progress.
I feel German manpower must come down or the Soviet manpower must go up a lot so that they can actually attrit the German army as they did in the real war.
Still a very nice game though .
/MM
I have a feeling based on forum activity that the game is being played less (I might be wrong) but if anyone still play vs human opponents is there anyone who actually wins as the allies against a similarly skilled opponent without using a somewhat gamey strategy like the UK all in in France?
My opinion is that the German economy and manpower numbers especially manpower are too high. There is no deterioration of the German army. Come 1944 the German force limit is fully built out and the units are way stronger than the allied units. With the nerfing of air units (happened a long time ago) it is really hard for the allies to make any progress.
I feel German manpower must come down or the Soviet manpower must go up a lot so that they can actually attrit the German army as they did in the real war.
Still a very nice game though .
/MM
Re: Game Balance
I completely agree about German manpower. In my latest game, Russian were not able to scratch German army.
And Russian manpower is degrading BEFORE any sign of a problem on German side:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p5035043
Based on my last game, I can vote that the game has an axis bias. But, I would like to confirm with the latest patch.
True, that the game maybe played less. I have the same feeling. Time for Warplan 2 !!!!
And Russian manpower is degrading BEFORE any sign of a problem on German side:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p5035043
Based on my last game, I can vote that the game has an axis bias. But, I would like to confirm with the latest patch.
True, that the game maybe played less. I have the same feeling. Time for Warplan 2 !!!!
Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
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Re: Game Balance
Based on my own experience, I must go with an Allied bias. My Allied wins are almost twice the rate of my Axis victories. France 1940 is far more difficult than the real one even if the UK holds back to real 1940 levels of deployment. In the current rev's USSR units hold together far better than in the past. Swatted three times in a row at 10-1 odds they just dance away. The USA by summer of '42 can be made ready for serious campaigning. The key to killing Germany is first killing Italy while keeping the Reich out of Leningrad and Moscow. THAT Italian collapse is very likely to happen even if Germany makes a major commitment to North Africa unless those troops are very well played. Follow that by invading France in '43 and Germany WILL start to run low on cannon fodder by 1944 especially if the USSR has the willingness to bleed twice as much as Germany each turn. Attack at 1-1 if necessary. pound that German corp until it breaks. Move on to the next opportunity.
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Re: Game Balance
We are in to our second pbem and in my opinion it is Axis biased. I think the experience levels of the Russian have to be adjusted in some way as the war goes on besides gaining it in combat. Yes they can get from defending as well but a decent German player can surround and eliminate a lot of Russians by encirclements. Multiple ground strikes followed by attacks by German armour with the infiltration specialty is very effective and the Russians don't ever seem to have enough units to form a double line. The 1 op cost to enter the hex of the retreated unit is deadly.
The Russian air force is never a factor and have read comments where players have scrapped the Russian air units to gain PPs. I think the Germans can take out any of the major three cities, namely Leningrad, Moscow, or Stalingrad regardless of what the Russians do because they cannot defend all 3.
This our first pbem game with the change in rail advancement and the winterization of the Siberians and we are in to the end of November 41. The advance of the Germans is pretty well the same as the last game with Leningrad cutoff except for the ice road and the Germans one hex from Sevastopol and adjacent to the Kerch Strait.
My friend and I are evenly matched and have been playing wargames since the days of Avalon Hill so two old gamers. We have another two friends who are starting a pbem game next week so it will be interesting to hear what they think of the game. Regardless, it is way better than the Strategic Command series.
The Russian air force is never a factor and have read comments where players have scrapped the Russian air units to gain PPs. I think the Germans can take out any of the major three cities, namely Leningrad, Moscow, or Stalingrad regardless of what the Russians do because they cannot defend all 3.
This our first pbem game with the change in rail advancement and the winterization of the Siberians and we are in to the end of November 41. The advance of the Germans is pretty well the same as the last game with Leningrad cutoff except for the ice road and the Germans one hex from Sevastopol and adjacent to the Kerch Strait.
My friend and I are evenly matched and have been playing wargames since the days of Avalon Hill so two old gamers. We have another two friends who are starting a pbem game next week so it will be interesting to hear what they think of the game. Regardless, it is way better than the Strategic Command series.
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Re: Game Balance
My vote was balanced which to me means the Axis have a little harder time because they should, they did lose after all, but they can still win at least defensive victories. my past few games against what I feel are pretty comp players all have been very good and most came out allied victories or tough defensive victories for the Axis. My two cents If you are having trouble as the Axis buy more subs, if you are having trouble as the Allies and think the German economy is to large do more strategic bombing. If you not winning as either buy more air force, from what I have seen it is under used and underestimated and is quit effective if used properly.
- AlvaroSousa
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Re: Game Balance
Balanced is for heads up play not A.I. play.
It also means the Axis have a small chance of an outright victory which usually involved conquering Russia and the Allies waving the white flag.
But an overall 50% chance of winning the game on VPs.
Each side should have a high level of healthy anxiety constantly saying "I need more of everything".
It also means the Axis have a small chance of an outright victory which usually involved conquering Russia and the Allies waving the white flag.
But an overall 50% chance of winning the game on VPs.
Each side should have a high level of healthy anxiety constantly saying "I need more of everything".
Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific
Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific
Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
Re: Game Balance
I don't know if my opinion has any value because I'm very bad at this game, although I love it. For now, I am totally unable to win a game playing Axis.
> a decent German player can surround and eliminate a lot of Russians by encirclements.
I'm not a decent German player, because I'm just able to surrounds IA's units, not thoses of a human player. I took Moscow once, but just to lose the city a year later. It is impossible to defend too large a front, which is the case when you take Moscow or Stalingrad. So I don't know how to crush the Russian (as I was when I played Allied sometimes).
I don't know what to do as the Axis player. But I know when I'm Allied that I will (most of the time) finally crush the Italian, and then the German until the end of 1945. So I reply « Allied bias » just because I'm a very bad Axis player.
> Each side should have a high level of healthy anxiety constantly saying "I need more of everything".
I agree : so true (+ cry).
> a decent German player can surround and eliminate a lot of Russians by encirclements.
I'm not a decent German player, because I'm just able to surrounds IA's units, not thoses of a human player. I took Moscow once, but just to lose the city a year later. It is impossible to defend too large a front, which is the case when you take Moscow or Stalingrad. So I don't know how to crush the Russian (as I was when I played Allied sometimes).
I don't know what to do as the Axis player. But I know when I'm Allied that I will (most of the time) finally crush the Italian, and then the German until the end of 1945. So I reply « Allied bias » just because I'm a very bad Axis player.
> Each side should have a high level of healthy anxiety constantly saying "I need more of everything".
I agree : so true (+ cry).
« Just because you lost doesn't mean you have to give up. As long as you can bite... »
- AlvaroSousa
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Re: Game Balance
lol, it's what keeps you playing
Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific
Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific
Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
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Re: Game Balance
This made me laugh
Our game took about 8 months off my life I think
Re: Game Balance
Yes, but it was a fun one! Hopefully for both sidesboldairade wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:36 pm
This made me laugh
Our game took about 8 months off my life I think
- AlvaroSousa
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Re: Game Balance
When I play I do so when watching YT on my other screen.
Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific
Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific
Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3
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- Posts: 928
- Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:07 pm
Re: Game Balance
Nirosi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:07 pmYes, but it was a fun one! Hopefully for both sidesboldairade wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:36 pm
This made me laugh
Our game took about 8 months off my life I think
VERY
if there isn't a little tension, there's no fun at all!
Re: Game Balance
In my limited experience so far I'd have to vote that there's an Axis advantage.
I've played 3 games as the Axis, and in all 3 the Allied player quit after I took the Middle East and invaded the USSR from Persia, which I don't believe the Allies can stop if the German player is determined. My latest game I was able to get both Spain to enter by a limited invasion of England as well as Turkey by taking Baku in '41.
Of my 3 games as the Allies, one the German was able to invade England all the way up to Scotland as well as take the Middle East and destroy the entire UK army by cutting off Africa. One is just starting and too close to call, the other the German player quit after taking out France with no explanation as he was doing fine IMO.
That said, the game does self-balance somewhat. With the US entering early I've got a lot more strength in '43 than the Allies would have normally, but every time I try to invade I'm pushed off the continent by massive Panzer counter attacks. I can't really see how to establish a foothold. I suspect if air was made slightly more powerful this would help the Allies, but I don't really have enough experience to pinpoint the problem. If defend orders worked like it sounds like they're supposed to (take more causalities but hold ground) that might help, as at present even my full up armor units with defend orders are forced to retreat when counter attacked, which makes it easy to cut off a shore invasion and annihilate everything. In my latest attempt I got 6 Infantry units, 3 armor and one HQ ashore, and all of this was wiped off the map in 3 turns by the German counter attack because the units retreated from key locations.
I've played 3 games as the Axis, and in all 3 the Allied player quit after I took the Middle East and invaded the USSR from Persia, which I don't believe the Allies can stop if the German player is determined. My latest game I was able to get both Spain to enter by a limited invasion of England as well as Turkey by taking Baku in '41.
Of my 3 games as the Allies, one the German was able to invade England all the way up to Scotland as well as take the Middle East and destroy the entire UK army by cutting off Africa. One is just starting and too close to call, the other the German player quit after taking out France with no explanation as he was doing fine IMO.
That said, the game does self-balance somewhat. With the US entering early I've got a lot more strength in '43 than the Allies would have normally, but every time I try to invade I'm pushed off the continent by massive Panzer counter attacks. I can't really see how to establish a foothold. I suspect if air was made slightly more powerful this would help the Allies, but I don't really have enough experience to pinpoint the problem. If defend orders worked like it sounds like they're supposed to (take more causalities but hold ground) that might help, as at present even my full up armor units with defend orders are forced to retreat when counter attacked, which makes it easy to cut off a shore invasion and annihilate everything. In my latest attempt I got 6 Infantry units, 3 armor and one HQ ashore, and all of this was wiped off the map in 3 turns by the German counter attack because the units retreated from key locations.
Re: Game Balance
I would be curious to hear about how to use air more effectively.generalfdog wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:57 am if you are having trouble as the Allies and think the German economy is to large do more strategic bombing. If you not winning as either buy more air force, from what I have seen it is under used and underestimated and is quit effective if used properly.
In my experience strategic bombing is pointless, as the damage is small and is repaired so quickly. From what I can tell, the production loss on the Axis side just isn't enough to justify the cost of these units.
Air support for attacks is pretty good, but air strikes also seem pretty pointless to me. I can strike a unit 16 times and it might get reduced a few strength points at the cost of losing an average of 8 points of air. That's not a great trade off IMO. I'd rather invest in armor units and cycle a set of reserve units in. Am I missing something here?
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Re: Game Balance
In some situations yes another panzer can be better but the game is about balance. things an air unit can do that a land unit can't, attack across a river with no penalty, focus an infinite amount of units on a single strategic point, attack land units or naval, other air, or factories, and if you are on defense they can aid even if they are not there. for this reason I believe air is a definite key of course other factors are also huge. With strategic bombing it isn't about a single turn calculation by that measure it is almost never worth it, you have to look at it as a compounding effect, bombing sucks away German resources making them invest in fighters and aa and if you can keep up the pressure and damage large production centers it can take very little effort to do alot of damage, take Berlin for example it is worth 25 in the late game the German production multiple is over 2x so it is worth over 50pp once you have it damaged a single bombing raid can keep it completely unproductive!kklemmick wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:08 pmI would be curious to hear about how to use air more effectively.generalfdog wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:57 am if you are having trouble as the Allies and think the German economy is to large do more strategic bombing. If you not winning as either buy more air force, from what I have seen it is under used and underestimated and is quit effective if used properly.
In my experience strategic bombing is pointless, as the damage is small and is repaired so quickly. From what I can tell, the production loss on the Axis side just isn't enough to justify the cost of these units.
Air support for attacks is pretty good, but air strikes also seem pretty pointless to me. I can strike a unit 16 times and it might get reduced a few strength points at the cost of losing an average of 8 points of air. That's not a great trade off IMO. I'd rather invest in armor units and cycle a set of reserve units in. Am I missing something here?
Re: Game Balance
Agree with generalfdog... And for Berlin, it will take 13 turns to fully repair. So once levelled, at 2x multiple that is 50 PPs lost the first turn, then 46 PPs then next one, then 42 etc. A huge amount of damage lasting over 13 turns while you pound other cities meanwhile... Nice compound effect...
Last edited by Nirosi on Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.