The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

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WEXF
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Re: The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

Post by WEXF »

RangerJoe wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:43 pm ALL torpedo bombers can carry torpedoes from a level 2 airfield.
Betty and Nell aircraft are not "Torpedo Bombers". They are "Level Bombers" according to the lists. So I don't understand why they don't fall under these rules from 7.2.1.7:

" Bombers carry fewer and/or smaller
bombs at extended range, and they cannot carry torpedoes at
extended range (they substitute a reduced payload of bombs).
» Level bombers flying out of a small airfield cannot fly at extended
range, and will be treated as if they are flying at extended range
when bombing targets at normal range. Planes flying a Naval or
ASW Search Mission will carry an extended range bomb load.
In order to avoid these penalties, the size of the airbase needs to be equal to:
4 + (Max load of aircraft / 6500), All fractions are rounded down"

Was there a change in the rules somewhere along the way? I couldn't find anything in the "Editor Manual" or "What's New".
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Re: The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

Post by BananaConvention »

RangerJoe wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:43 pm ALL torpedo bombers can carry torpedoes from a level 2 airfield.
WEXF, RangerJoe is correct. The Nells and Betties can carry torpedoes from a level 2 airfield. This is specifically why I chose these bases to base my aircraft from initially (under great advisement from my dear friend DesertWolf who told me about the level 2 thing). From the combat reports you can see they are successfully delivering torpedoes from these bases.

For record, Manado is level 3, and Kuching is level 2 as of 10 Dec.

Great discussion guys, I appreciate it!
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Bad Weather, Bad Luck. Again. - 10 Dec 1941

Post by BananaConvention »

I can never seem to catch a break in this game! If it's not a CAP trap, a torpedoed carrier, or a failed invasion, it's bad weather! I had big planes for my air forces today but they were grounded and unable to fly, and it may be serious consequences to our future operations.

https://youtu.be/GHdjVw2jCRA
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WEXF
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Re: The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

Post by WEXF »

BananaConvention wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:33 am
RangerJoe wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:43 pm ALL torpedo bombers can carry torpedoes from a level 2 airfield.
WEXF, RangerJoe is correct. The Nells and Betties can carry torpedoes from a level 2 airfield. This is specifically why I chose these bases to base my aircraft from initially (under great advisement from my dear friend DesertWolf who told me about the level 2 thing). From the combat reports you can see they are successfully delivering torpedoes from these bases.

For record, Manado is level 3, and Kuching is level 2 as of 10 Dec.

Great discussion guys, I appreciate it!
Please don't get me wrong. I am not doubting that the attacks happened or that the game allows level 2 AF to fly missions by MB that have a torpedo capability. I am asking where or when the rule changed? The manual says something different.
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Re: The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

Post by RangerJoe »

WEXF wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:42 am
BananaConvention wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:33 am
RangerJoe wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:43 pm ALL torpedo bombers can carry torpedoes from a level 2 airfield.
WEXF, RangerJoe is correct. The Nells and Betties can carry torpedoes from a level 2 airfield. This is specifically why I chose these bases to base my aircraft from initially (under great advisement from my dear friend DesertWolf who told me about the level 2 thing). From the combat reports you can see they are successfully delivering torpedoes from these bases.

For record, Manado is level 3, and Kuching is level 2 as of 10 Dec.

Great discussion guys, I appreciate it!
Please don't get me wrong. I am not doubting that the attacks happened or that the game allows level 2 AF to fly missions by MB that have a torpedo capability. I am asking where or when the rule changed? The manual says something different.
If you look at the normal range load for those aircraft, you will see that the load is a torpedo and not bombs.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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WEXF
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Re: The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

Post by WEXF »

BananaConvention wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:33 am
If you look at the normal range load for those aircraft, you will see that the load is a torpedo and not bombs.
I understand what you are saying. My question relates to Rule 9.4 that reads:

"Level bombers require an airfield equal to size 4
+ (bomb load / 6500) rounded down. So, a B29 requires a size 7 airfield to avoid the penalties.
Light bombers require a starting airfield of 2 rather than 4.
Penalties include:
» Increased operational losses on takeoff.
» A reduction in their range as air units cannot fly combat
Missions at greater than their normal range.
» A diminished (extended range) bomb load"
I believe this rule, as written, tells us that Level Bombers like Nell and Betty require more than a level 2/3 airfield to be able to fly combat missions without suffering a series of penalties.
The first penalty of higher operational losses makes sense and needs no further comment.
The second penalty is that Nells and Betties would not be able to fly strike missions at greater then their normal range. So if they are ordered to do fly a mission at extended range from a small field (less than size 4), the mission should not take place.
It is the third penalty that is the issue. That has the Nell and Betty operating from a small AF required to carry a "diminished (extended range) bomb load". That is 2x250kg bombs. Checking that load comes to 1102 pounds.
The normal load is either a 18" Type 91 Torpedo with a load of 1764 pounds or in our game 2x250kg bombs + 4x60kg bombs for a load of 1630 pounds.
Again, I am not saying that our game doesn't or shouldn't allow torpedo runs from small AF. It clearly does.
I am only saying that the rules as stated in the Manual tell us they shouldn't be allowed to do so. Perhaps the designers never built that into the system.
I read these AAR to learn what the rules in our game actually are. I expect "newbies" to WITP-AE need clarity as well.
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Re: The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

Post by BananaConvention »

This may be a case of the manual omitting or not keeping up with changes, or not covering every detail. The manual
Is full of issues as it pertains to this. I hope we can get the word out to new players who are reading AARs and watching my videos that a size 2 Airfield is all that is required to fly torpedo missions. It’s confirmed and it’s a thing. And it opens up many options for Japanese LBA.
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Re: The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

Post by WEXF »

Completely agree, time to move on.
I really enjoy your postings on YT.
Hopefully the weather will get better so your air missions will actually fly.
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Re: The Tables are Turned: Hellsen (A) vs. Heiden (J) - Scenario 2

Post by BananaConvention »

WEXF wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:13 pm Completely agree, time to move on.
I really enjoy your postings on YT.
Hopefully the weather will get better so your air missions will actually fly.
WEXF
Thank you so much for your support of my campaign! I really appreciate it. You really should hop over to Discord man.
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Solomons Land Grab - 11 Dec 1941

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Today was a mixed-bag of results. We made some gains (particularly in the Solomons) but had some setbacks as well. Overall, I would say the performance of my air forces has been abysmal to date, and it's really acting like a boat anchor to my campaign. I hope we can figure out how to get them to perform, and soon.

https://youtu.be/7SUqv2frLwU
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Our FIRST Land Defeat! - 12 Dec 1941

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We suffer our very first ground defeat at the hands of the Americans in this turn. It's a reminder that we are not entirely invincible on the ground. However, despite the small setback, we make many strides in other places and I capture a career high number of bases!

https://youtu.be/621N82zwNQE
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Paratroopers SEIZE a key objective! - 13 Dec 1941

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We are still getting our butt kicked by weather and overall bad air performance, but at least one thing went right: A major paratrooper attack in China! With this successful operation, we will be opening the flood gates and securing a vital road to victory against the Chinese which is a critical component to my overall campaign strategy.

https://youtu.be/RUwWoeGdDbs
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Boise & Houston show their ugly faces! - 14 Dec 1941

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I KNEW IT! I knew they never left. I was worried about this. But I didn't plan accordingly. I guess I didn't think Hellsen would risk coming into range of my Nells and Betties in the DEI, but he went there. Watch and find out where he showed up, how much damage he caused, and if we put these animals down for good.... or not.

https://youtu.be/o1q5hWy5ZZ0
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Showdown in The Celebes Sea! - 15 Dec 1941

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Today's the big showdown! My forces caught up to the Houston and the Boise, and we have a showdown to determine who's going to control the Celebes Sea. The results my surprise you.

In other areas, Hellsen has finally woken up and has launched an offensive operation in the Gilbert islands. It may be bad news for our ships operating in that area.

https://youtu.be/990NzCNtBqg
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Back to Back Great Turns? Can't Be!! - 16 Dec 1941

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Could it be possible we can have two outstanding turns in a row? With the luck I usually have in this game it's hard to believe, but it happened!

The seas were calm, and the weather was poor for flying, but our ground troops got the job done in a huge way this turn, and a couple serious hurdles were overcome. I am feeling cautiously optimistic about our progress. Take a look and see what we accomplished this turn!

https://youtu.be/CypCLHF8mo8
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Allied Subs Ruin my Good Turn Streak - 17 Dec 1941

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I've never been able to string together more than 2 turns in a row that were good. I can't seem to reach three in a row. Allied subs emerged from the depths and totally ruined my day. We dodged a bullet on one critical ship, but another one didn't make it and it's going to set us back a lot.

https://youtu.be/A9WmCxdeCTE
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Rained out in China, But We Keep Pushing - 18 Dec 1941

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We had another terrible day for weather, grounding many critical flights, but our forces on the ground continue to push and drive the Chinese troops into the mountains like cattle. It's a race against time to catch up to them before it's too late.

https://youtu.be/Xpan0MveNZk
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My Birthday Turn Is Full of Gifts - 19 Dec 1941

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Today's my birthday turn! I was born on the 19th of December. Overall I would call this turn a gift, as despite taking some avoidable losses, we met our objectives for the day. Take a look at the video and let's see how many gifts the Allies gave us.

https://youtu.be/lN92T-45hTM
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BLITZKRIEG in China has Begun - 20 Dec 1941

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As the euphoria of the Birthday Turn wears off, we are back to work and back on the grind in China. Today was a pivotal day in our campaign; We have officially opened up the Blitzkrieg drive up the Ankang Road with a massive victory. It's full speed ahead now up the road until we meet our next major objective.

https://youtu.be/rS8jYAh0NIw
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The Secret's Out: Our Carrier are Here - 21 Dec 1941

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The secret as to where the Kido Butai has been has been revealed this turn. We were able to sneak in close, but not close enough due to some tripwire ships laid out in front of us. It's not going to stop impending doom however.

We also received another revelation. Our patrol boats deep in the Pacific north of Wake were intercepted by a formation of enemy destroyers. What they're going out there and where they're going is not currently known, but it could be the signaling of an offensive move towards the Home Islands by enemy carrier forces.


https://youtu.be/PDO2ErzLtXw
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