Attacks on Carrier TF's

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Admiral Scott
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Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Admiral Scott »

What is the secret to getting bombers to attack enemy carriers at night?
Experience is over 50, the squadrons are near or at full strength, morale is good, but they won't fly.
Do they insist upon fighter escort even at night? Do I need patrols scouting effectively at night?

Also, will a B-17 squadron attack an enemy carrier TF during the day at 5,000 feet with or without an escort?
Does the squadron leader's aggressive trait factor in at all?
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Admiral DadMan »

The bar is set much higher at night.

Experience
Air Rating
Aggressiveness
Leadership
Detection Level.

All that stuff has higher bars to get over.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by RangerJoe »

Admiral Scott wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 4:57 pm What is the secret to getting bombers to attack enemy carriers at night?
Experience is over 50, the squadrons are near or at full strength, morale is good, but they won't fly. yes, yes, that depends upon multiple factors
Do they insist upon fighter escort even at night? no, no escorts at night Do I need patrols scouting effectively at night? DL is changed so night naval search at night is needed

Also, will a B-17 squadron attack an enemy carrier TF during the day at 5,000 feet with or without an escort?maybe, maybe
Does the squadron leader's aggressive trait factor in at all?yes
It is difficult to get aircraft to attack at night but it can be done. Naval search is needed, night attack PBYs carrying torpedoes while also searching is a good combination. B-17s attacking ships is usually just a bomber sweep to clear enemy fighters.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Admiral Scott »

Will a B-17 squadron attack an enemy carrier TF during the day at 5,000 feet with or without an escort?
Does the squadron leader's aggressive trait factor in at all?
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by RangerJoe »

Admiral Scott wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 5:20 pm Will a B-17 squadron attack an enemy carrier TF during the day at 5,000 feet with or without an escort?
Does the squadron leader's aggressive trait factor in at all?
I already answered your questions. "Maybe" was the answer for the first two and yes the squadron's leader aggression is a factor.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by btd64 »

Admiral Scott wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 5:20 pm Will a B-17 squadron attack an enemy carrier TF during the day at 5,000 feet with or without an escort?
Does the squadron leader's aggressive trait factor in at all?
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Admiral Scott »

Would the B-17 squadron be more likely to attack if it was an enemy TF without carriers?
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Sardaukar »

Admiral Scott wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 6:45 pm Would the B-17 squadron be more likely to attack if it was an enemy TF without carriers?
Of course.

Calculations take count on enemy CAP. Not all are keen on suicide missions, thus leader aggressiveness rating will have big effect.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Admiral Scott »

Ok, thanks.

Everything I have read said, an Air group leader's aggressive trait had no effect at all.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Chris21wen »

Admiral Scott wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 7:41 pm Ok, thanks.

Everything I have read said, an Air group leader's aggressive trait had no effect at all.
For air groups aggression seem to play a part in all missions. The high it is the more likely that the air unit will continue to the target in face of adverse conditions, including enemy CAP.

For AIr HQ aggression plays no part.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by PaxMondo »

Chris21wen wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 6:17 am For AIr HQ aggression plays no part.
... that we know of.


The devs have never come out and said that our list of what we think works is correct and encompassing. They also have never said it is wrong. The silence is rather deafening actually.

Beyond what is specifically stated in the manual, always take the advice with some grain of salt. I don't think we have anything wrong per se, but I strongly suspect that there are some aspects that we do not have fully defined.

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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Admiral Scott »

Has anyone ever edited an air leader to give it 99 aggressiveness and test it in game?
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Chris21wen »

Admiral Scott wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 3:38 pm Has anyone ever edited an air leader to give it 99 aggressiveness and test it in game?
I've not, all I know is what the manual says (and you can take that with a pinch of salt), what others have said and observation, much as Pax said.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Sardaukar »

By the way, to get night naval air attack, moon phase (and probably weather) is also important. Radar only gets you only so far if pilots cannot see targets.

So, night naval air attack has so many obstacles that it is very rare.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Chris21wen »

Sardaukar wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 1:47 pm By the way, to get night naval air attack, moon phase (and probably weather) is also important. Radar only gets you only so far if pilots cannot see targets.

So, night naval air attack has so many obstacles that it is very rare.
As it was in reality.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Admiral Scott »

The British effectively used swordfish torpedo bombers at night, does the game accurately reflect that?
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by RangerJoe »

Admiral Scott wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 4:49 pm The British effectively used swordfish torpedo bombers at night, does the game accurately reflect that?
Try it and find out.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by LargeSlowTarget »

Admiral Scott wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 4:49 pm The British effectively used swordfish torpedo bombers at night, does the game accurately reflect that?
They did indeed - about one time in 5+ years of war. The game accurately reflects this - you may get one effective night torpedo attack in the game.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by Admiral Scott »

Some successful Fairey Swordfish night actions......

On 30 June 1940, night raid upon oil tanks at Augusta, Sicily.

On 11 November 1940, Swordfish flying from HMS Illustrious achieved great success in the Battle of Taranto.
Regular aerial reconnaissance missions were flown to gather intelligence on the positions of specific capital ships and Swordfish crews were intensively trained for night flying operations, as an undetected aerial attack during the night raid had been judged to be the only effective method of reasonably overcoming the defences of the well-protected harbour and to strike at the fleet anchored there.
The aerial attack started with a volley of flares being dropped by Swordfish aircraft to illuminate the harbour, after which, the Swordfish formation commenced bombing and torpedo runs. Due to the presence of barrage balloons and torpedo nets restricting the number of suitable torpedo-dropping positions, many of the Swordfish had been armed with bombs and made a synchronised attack upon the cruisers and destroyers instead. The six torpedo-armed Swordfish inflicted serious damage on three of the battleships. Two cruisers, two destroyers and other vessels were damaged or sunk. The high manoeuvrability of the Swordfish was attributed with enabling the aircraft to evade intense anti-aircraft fire and hit the Italian ships.

Battle of Cape Matapan March 1941.
Six Albacores and two Fairey Swordfish of 826 and 828 Naval Air Squadrons from Formidable and two Swordfish of 815 squadron from Crete took place between 19:36 and 19:50. Admiral Iachino deployed his ships in three columns and used smoke, searchlights, and a heavy barrage to protect Vittorio Veneto. The tactics prevented further damage to the battleship, but one torpedo hit Pola, which had nearly stopped to avoid running into Fiume and could not take any evasive action. This blow knocked out five boilers and the main steam line, causing Pola to lose electric power and drift to a stop. The torpedo was apparently dropped by Lieutenant Grainger Williams. Williams was subsequently awarded the Distinguished Service Cross.

The Swordfish also flew a high level of anti-shipping sorties in the Mediterranean, many aircraft being based at Malta. Guided by aerial reconnaissance from other RAF units, Swordfish would time their attacks to arrive at enemy convoys in the dark to elude German fighters, which were restricted to daytime operations. While there were never more than a total of 27 Swordfish aircraft stationed on the island at a time, the type succeeded in sinking an average of 50,000 tons of enemy shipping per month across a nine-month period. During one record month, 98,000 tons of shipping were reportedly lost to the island's Swordfish-equipped strike force. The recorded Swordfish losses were low, especially in relation to the high sortie rate of the aircraft and in light of the fact that many aircraft lacked any blind-flying equipment, making night flying even more hazardous

May 26 1941 Ark Royal launched two Swordfish strikes against Bismarck. The first failed to locate the ship. The second attack scored two torpedo hits, one of which jammed the ship's rudders at a 12° port helm. This made Bismarck unmanoeuvrable and unable to escape to port in France. She sank after intense Royal Navy attack within 13 hours. Some of the Swordfish flew so low that most of Bismarck's flak weapons could not depress enough to hit them.

Towards the end of the war, No. 119 Squadron RAF operated Swordfish Mark IIIs with centimetric radar from airfields in Belgium. Their main task was to hunt at night for German midget submarines in the North Sea and off the Dutch coast. The radar was able to detect ships at a range of around 25 miles.
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Re: Attacks on Carrier TF's

Post by RangerJoe »

Admiral Scott wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 1:01 am Some successful Fairey Swordfish night actions......

On 30 June 1940, night raid upon oil tanks at Augusta, Sicily.

On 11 November 1940, Swordfish flying from HMS Illustrious achieved great success in the Battle of Taranto.
Regular aerial reconnaissance missions were flown to gather intelligence on the positions of specific capital ships and Swordfish crews were intensively trained for night flying operations, as an undetected aerial attack during the night raid had been judged to be the only effective method of reasonably overcoming the defences of the well-protected harbour and to strike at the fleet anchored there.
The aerial attack started with a volley of flares being dropped by Swordfish aircraft to illuminate the harbour, after which, the Swordfish formation commenced bombing and torpedo runs. Due to the presence of barrage balloons and torpedo nets restricting the number of suitable torpedo-dropping positions, many of the Swordfish had been armed with bombs and made a synchronised attack upon the cruisers and destroyers instead. The six torpedo-armed Swordfish inflicted serious damage on three of the battleships. Two cruisers, two destroyers and other vessels were damaged or sunk. The high manoeuvrability of the Swordfish was attributed with enabling the aircraft to evade intense anti-aircraft fire and hit the Italian ships.

Battle of Cape Matapan March 1941.
Six Albacores and two Fairey Swordfish of 826 and 828 Naval Air Squadrons from Formidable and two Swordfish of 815 squadron from Crete took place between 19:36 and 19:50. Admiral Iachino deployed his ships in three columns and used smoke, searchlights, and a heavy barrage to protect Vittorio Veneto. The tactics prevented further damage to the battleship, but one torpedo hit Pola, which had nearly stopped to avoid running into Fiume and could not take any evasive action. This blow knocked out five boilers and the main steam line, causing Pola to lose electric power and drift to a stop. The torpedo was apparently dropped by Lieutenant Grainger Williams. Williams was subsequently awarded the Distinguished Service Cross.

The Swordfish also flew a high level of anti-shipping sorties in the Mediterranean, many aircraft being based at Malta. Guided by aerial reconnaissance from other RAF units, Swordfish would time their attacks to arrive at enemy convoys in the dark to elude German fighters, which were restricted to daytime operations. While there were never more than a total of 27 Swordfish aircraft stationed on the island at a time, the type succeeded in sinking an average of 50,000 tons of enemy shipping per month across a nine-month period. During one record month, 98,000 tons of shipping were reportedly lost to the island's Swordfish-equipped strike force. The recorded Swordfish losses were low, especially in relation to the high sortie rate of the aircraft and in light of the fact that many aircraft lacked any blind-flying equipment, making night flying even more hazardous

May 26 1941 Ark Royal launched two Swordfish strikes against Bismarck. The first failed to locate the ship. The second attack scored two torpedo hits, one of which jammed the ship's rudders at a 12° port helm. This made Bismarck unmanoeuvrable and unable to escape to port in France. She sank after intense Royal Navy attack within 13 hours. Some of the Swordfish flew so low that most of Bismarck's flak weapons could not depress enough to hit them.

Towards the end of the war, No. 119 Squadron RAF operated Swordfish Mark IIIs with centimetric radar from airfields in Belgium. Their main task was to hunt at night for German midget submarines in the North Sea and off the Dutch coast. The radar was able to detect ships at a range of around 25 miles.
No idea where these came from since there are no links.

Taranto was a port attack, not against a task force. It would not be all that difficult to find a port at night, at least compared to a moving, high speed task force.

The Pola was unusual because the cruiser was essentially stopped.

Attacking slow merchant ships is different than attacking a carrier task force. The British also had the advantage of signal intercepts and decoding of the German signals and probably the Italian signals as well so they knew where they convoys were going, the convoys routes, and when they were departing/arriving. The British also had radar equipped Wellingtons for Night Naval Searches. Also, unless the enemy shipping was detected by units in the area, the aircraft did not fly to attack. What you posted also did not mention anything about the moonlight available and how that would aid or hinder these attacks.

The air strike that found and attacked Bismarck occurred at dusk which is not night.

The No. 119 Squadron would be conducting Night Naval Search, not a Night Naval Attack. What is their record of finding and then attacking any targets found?
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