Hierarchy Module Document

[Curtis Lemay]

Here are some example events: (Note the trick I used for the "Rename" events: The new name is entered in the "News" pane - this is the only part of the event that accepts character inputs).

[Curtis Lemay]

And some more:

[fulcrum28]

Thank you Bob for your efforts. It is really very impressive and interesting work.
I like all new features. I also like the additions that involves adding pics to each Commander....
Please...would it be possible to add a similar feature for equipment? For example, now when we click on one equipment such as T-34, we can see the year, and some other basic features. In the same pop-up window, could you please add a space for a pic of that equipment? It would add a lot from the perspective of the modding and even all equipment have empty pic slots when it is released, the community would gladly expand it and add new pics..if you see Command Modern Operations game, it works like that, the community releases database packs of pics for each sensor, missile, aircraft, ground vehicle etc...it makes the game more alive and updated to the current age where mods are very common

[Curtis Lemay]

Thank you Bob for your efforts. It is really very impressive and interesting work.
I like all new features. I also like the additions that involves adding pics to each Commander....
Please...would it be possible to add a similar feature for equipment? For example, now when we click on one equipment such as T-34, we can see the year, and some other basic features. In the same pop-up window, could you please add a space for a pic of that equipment? It would add a lot from the perspective of the modding and even all equipment have empty pic slots when it is released, the community would gladly expand it and add new pics..if you see Command Modern Operations game, it works like that, the community releases database packs of pics for each sensor, missile, aircraft, ground vehicle etc...it makes the game more alive and updated to the current age where mods are very common

The Equipment expansion will be next up.

[cathar1244]

Bob,

By "equipment expansion", do you mean the format of the equipment file will change, or ?

Cheers

[cathar1244]

@fulcrum28

No doubt the community would pitch in regarding images of equipment.

But that poses issues for Matrix; specifically, how to determine if images are in the public domain or not.

To gain an appreciation of how problematic this can be, look for images of the French military, equipment or otherwise. Practically all of them are property of the French government and can only be displayed with permission. There are some exceptions, such as when U.S. Signal Corps personnel took photos of the French army.

I am somewhat familiar with this situation because I was for a while part of the team that worked on SPWW2 and SPMBT, both of which used .lbm images to display equipment and troops. It is a nice bit of chrome, but comes with some baggage as well.

Cheers

[Curtis Lemay]

Bob,

By "equipment expansion", do you mean the format of the equipment file will change, or ?

Cheers

The number of parameters and flags will increase a lot from the current:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3#p4215693

Think of several new pages of the above.

[Curtis Lemay]

@fulcrum28

No doubt the community would pitch in regarding images of equipment.

But that poses issues for Matrix; specifically, how to determine if images are in the public domain or not.

To gain an appreciation of how problematic this can be, look for images of the French military, equipment or otherwise. Practically all of them are property of the French government and can only be displayed with permission. There are some exceptions, such as when U.S. Signal Corps personnel took photos of the French army.

I am somewhat familiar with this situation because I was for a while part of the team that worked on SPWW2 and SPMBT, both of which used .lbm images to display equipment and troops. It is a nice bit of chrome, but comes with some baggage as well.

Cheers

Surely pics from WW-II and earlier are public domain by now. Modern stuff could be photographed at shows or parades. How could the French own all photos ever taken? And are we big enough for anyone to care?

[cathar1244]

Surely pics from WW-II and earlier are public domain by now. Modern stuff could be photographed at shows or parades. How could the French own all photos ever taken? And are we big enough for anyone to care?

Hi Bob,

Best to be well informed, not least because Matrix products are sold in France via the internet.

Anyway, here is something to chew on.

La structure générale du Site, ainsi que les logiciels et les bases de données afférents sont la propriété exclusive de l’ECPAD. Toute reproduction, toute représentation totale ou partielle, toute adaptation, toute mise à disposition ou modification de ces éléments par quelque procédé que ce soit, par quelque personne que ce soit et par quelque moyen que ce soit (notamment la vente, la commercialisation, la location, etc.) sans l’autorisation expresse de l’ECPAD, des éventuels auteurs ou de leurs ayants droit est strictement interdite et constitue un délit de contrefaçon au sens du code de la propriété intellectuelle.

Translates as,

The general structure of the Site, as well as the related software and databases are the exclusive property of ECPAD. Any reproduction, total or partial representation, adaptation, provision or modification of these elements by any process whatsoever, by any person whatsoever and by any means whatsoever (in particular sale, marketing, rental, etc.) without the express authorisation of ECPAD, any authors or their beneficiaries is strictly prohibited and constitutes an infringement within the meaning of the Intellectual Property Code.

From-- https://imagesdefense.gouv.fr/condition ... tilisation

So, obviously this doesn't apply to those images that aren't controlled by ECPAD (that part of the French defense establishment that holds images, videos, etc.). But they control, as far as I have seen, the bulk of them.

As to how visible Matrix is to the EU authorities, who knows ... but it is better to not get on their radar, because if they seek damages, it could possibly bankrupt Matrix as their punitive fees are really huge.

But hey, I'm not a lawyer nor am I advocating for anyone. However, my suggestion is that bits like this should be run by Matrix legal counsel to avoid unnecessary issues.

I see Getty images has over 70,000 images of the French military, but they too want payment for those.

For what it is worth.

Cheers--

[cathar1244]

@Bob

Thank you for the reply concerning changes to equipment.

Cheers--

[josant]

@fulcrum28



But that poses issues for Matrix; specifically, how to determine if images are in the public domain or not.

The images on wikipedia were not free?

[Hoplite1963]

This is very impressive. Obviously not for now but at some point it would be good to be able to set up and use unit portraits of a similar size as those for leaders.

Kind regards
Ian

[cathar1244]

@fulcrum28



But that poses issues for Matrix; specifically, how to determine if images are in the public domain or not.

The images on wikipedia were not free?

Hi Josant,

That can theoretically be checked on Wikipedia. Click on the image and look for another button to click named "details". That goes to a page with more information about the status of the image. Some are public domain but others are licensed in such a way that they can be used but not for commercial purposes, like sales of TOAW.

And some of the images on Wikipedia are simply stolen but the person who uploaded them falsely claims they hold the rights to the image.

Like I said, images come with issues and have to be selected with care.

Cheers

[Lobster]

Some are public domain but others are licensed in such a way that they can be used but not for commercial purposes, like sales of TOAW.

And some of the images on Wikipedia are simply stolen but the person who uploaded them falsely claims they hold the rights to the image.

Like I said, images come with issues and have to be selected with care.

Cheers

It is indeed a slippery slope.

slipperslope.jpg (6.71 KiB) Viewed 1044 times

[woos1981]

Some are public domain but others are licensed in such a way that they can be used but not for commercial purposes, like sales of TOAW.

And some of the images on Wikipedia are simply stolen but the person who uploaded them falsely claims they hold the rights to the image.

Like I said, images come with issues and have to be selected with care.

Cheers

It is indeed a slippery slope. slipperslope.jpg

Personally, I think Bob should just design and leave a window for players to insert weapon equipment pictures. As for the legal issues related to the self-made scripts in the player-made scenarios, the script designers, rather than the game publishers or developers, should bear the responsibility. In this way, Bob would have no pressure. If the official statement can be made in the manual or instruction book of the script editor, it can avoid unnecessary troubles. My personal opinion is for reference only.

[cathar1244]

Some are public domain but others are licensed in such a way that they can be used but not for commercial purposes, like sales of TOAW.

And some of the images on Wikipedia are simply stolen but the person who uploaded them falsely claims they hold the rights to the image.

Like I said, images come with issues and have to be selected with care.

Cheers

It is indeed a slippery slope. slipperslope.jpg

Personally, I think Bob should just design and leave a window for players to insert weapon equipment pictures. As for the legal issues related to the self-made scripts in the player-made scenarios, the script designers, rather than the game publishers or developers, should bear the responsibility. In this way, Bob would have no pressure. If the official statement can be made in the manual or instruction book of the script editor, it can avoid unnecessary troubles. My personal opinion is for reference only.

That would (probably) work for any images not part of the "official" TOAW distribution sold with the software. The capability, as you note, can be provided, and Matrix can decide how much, if any, legal risk they wish to assume should an image they use in the for-sale software product turn out to not be free for commercial use.

Cheers

[Lobster]

Ron at Schwerpunkt seems to have found plenty of royalty free images for his games. But I'd rather people working on the game program work on the game program rather than attempt to secure royalty free images for every piece of equipment in the game. So yeah, leave it up to the modders to do that.

[Curtis Lemay]

Just as there was a "Commander Task Force" there will be an "Equipment Task Force". But that's eons away.

[William the Silent]

About the Equipment Picture issue:
I would suggest to let the TOAW game community do that part through Mods. Then the pictures will be just for personel use. And Like with Total War, the community is better at that then the developer, who is bound to copy rights or having to hire a expensive artist to do the job.

There are plenty of WW2 pictures out there from other games that can be used that cover all equipment (thinking about John Tiller games).
I used some to create TOAW equipment pictures.
Could even use them in full size, for personal use on your games.

[Curtis Lemay]

This thread will give some details of the upcoming Update (which is known as the "Hierarchy Module").

First of all, great work. Secondly . . .

How much time & effort will it take to convert an existing scenario to the new format? Use your scenario CFNA 1940-43 as an example. Assume the person doing the conversion has to go thru the learning curve.

Regards

I can now answer this question based upon direct experience modifying that specific scenario: Started on 12/20/24, finished 1/19/25 = 1 Month. (There were holidays and out of town trips in that, though).

Changes were:

1. Using the new Hierarchy features, created hierarchies for both sides.
2. Added Commanders for both sides, including spare commanders.
3. Events generated for commander casualties => VPs.
4. Made extensive use of the 32 characters for formation and unit names where appropriate.
5. Formations given sizes, nationalities and service arms.
6. Units given nationalities and service arms.
7. Return Events and Rename Events eliminated the need for duplicate units => all were deleted.
8. Generated those Return and Rename events for such units/formations.
9. Side one starts out named “Italians”. Changed to “Axis” on turn 53 when the Germans arrive.
10. Alternate Forces replacement values were generated for both sides.
11. Italian non-elite units had their Commitment values reduced from their Proficiency values.
12. Events intended to model commander bonus/penalties are removed (Actual commanders will effect this).
13. Commanders are promoted/withdrawn/detached/attached as needed by events.