T-80 thermals useless?

[Panta_slith]

I am playing with a friend the A Test of Wills scenario and found out that the T-80's thermal sights are unable to see under the rain beyond 500m, something that not prevents NATO units from firing and hitting their targets from several hexes of distance. Upon the first turn the WP units became just frozen targets, only the artillery can do some harm.
Are you sure that 89's Soviet thermals are that useless or is it just another bug?

[HeinzBaby]

I believe T-80UM: with the new Buran thermal imaging sight replaced that of the Luna IR, entered service in the 1990's,
outside the Sim's timeline.

T80U (improved) is the latest Soviet MBT in game, entering service 1985. earlier models T80B and T80BV (reactive armour) are also in game.

[CapnDarwin]

No thermals on the T-80s until 90-91 as HeinzBaby notes.[8D]

[Panta_slith]

Yes, you are right, the unhappy Russians just have light amplifiers. Well, then that scenario is a no-go for the Russian player, it puts on the stage blind players against short sighted!

[fluidwill]

Well boo hoo.

T-80's in my experience are extremely hard to kill so swings and roundabouts.

[fluidwill]

And don't get me started on those damn missiles they fire

[Panta_slith]

In the scenario I tried they were rather quick to die, I was decimated in one or two turns whilst my units stood still, like good heroes of the Motherland, without seeing a single enemy and dying too fast for the force's sake. After trying a few more scenarios with similar results I decided to edit them to avoid unnecessary advantages like bad weather (just one side fires beyond one hex), fighting against poorly trained and motivated units, because who wants to play space invaders as the target spaceships? IMO most scenarios of both FPG and GR are too unbalanced for H2H (the WP player just plays the target or is overwhelmed by superior forces), but with a little edition you can improve them a lot. BTW, the editor and some maps are really excellent!

[fluidwill]

My friends and I have been playing this game for nearly a decade now and we've had hours of pleasure as a result.

If I can make some gentle suggestions the system is nothing like the other games you play (nod to Command Ops) in this game your troops wont do what you want. Shortly after the beginning of the scenario you will feel the situation slipping out of your grasp. You will be responding to events but your troops will be moving TOO SLOW. They will sit there like morons and get shot to pieces.
Playing Warpac takes a whole change in outlook. Best concept I've come up with is imagine you're a giant robot. Nato has to cover the whole front, you can usually just pick a point and smash straight through with your big robot fist but usually you only get one shot at it and the bulk of your orders are issued at set up and most of them are assault orders. Pick first second and third objective -smash a regiment onto it and hold. Pick next objective - have next regiment hit it 10 mins later and so on. I like to pass follow on waves through my first lunge, fakes and faints accepted, though my buddies get good results smashing one bit of the line and 10-20 mins later smashing a seperate bit because the Rommel on the other side (me) is rushing to the first fire. As the Soviets you can have any bit of the map you want as long as you don't let Nato sit back under smoke and kill you, get up close and personal and never ever stop moving.
PM if you want a battle - I'll take WarPac and show you that having a shorter OODA cycle is kind of meaningless if you're dead.

[Panta_slith]

Well, it seems reasonable, but on the practical side I have noticed that my OPFOR manual tactics don't work. I have played scenarios with WP having just T64s and BTRs against M1s and M2s with missiles and thermals, for not to say that frequrently my units were frozen on site.
And yes, I would like to play some of the scenarios I mentioned, so I could see what am I doing wrong. What about Test of Wills, for instance? I had problems with that particular scenario.

[fluidwill]

Sounds great, I'm Fluidwill (just, no matrix) on PBEM++ so set up a challenge and we can play. PM me the Pword or just put it here, I'm sure no-one will steal my spot, looking forward to it.

[Panta_slith]

Good, but just please remind me how to play on Pbem++, if I ever played pbem++, it was a long time ago, when FPG was published. An I was (or still am, on Steam, but grew a dislike for it whilst playing Flight Simulator X, so I switched to Prepar3D and mainly forgot about it! I can make several turns a day now that we are like in an inmersed submarine because of the plague.

[DeletedUser1676996457]

That's one the beauties in this game. The ability to modify as you see fit....at least at the database level.

I personally play with some adjustments on my own. Specially training and morale numbers...equipment and countermeasures quality.

Just as a curiosity, I did once a test and added thermals to the T-80U....man I actually reverted that back real quick, that machine was virtually unbeatable. No match for any other tank in game...it is actually one of the deadliest tanks in game, if not the deadliest, even without thermals. The only real advantage of NATO is to shoot first...

You can play with the specials column in the database as well. Pretty interesting.

Anyway, there is a way to proper play with WP with it's current conditions in game. Its It's different as of playing with the NATO side. Take your time to learn it and you will be able to beat NATO as well. Have fun above all at the end.

Cheers

[Panta_slith]

Rincon,
It is very interesting what you say. Where do you exactly find the data related to any unit in particular? I tried the editor but such things as equipment, like thermals, isn't available there. I am interested in the order delay times each side has in particular, IMO the time for WP to follow orders WP has been overestimated at the point to make them irresponsive for long periods. Nobody wants to play a side where you give orders and wait for several turns watching the fate of your units whilst your opponent gets all the fun, being able to react and give orders that will be obeyed each time!

[DeletedUser1676996457]

Panta-slith, you can adjust a lot as far as the database file permits. See more details the the modding guide 4 National Database, in the document game folder:

C:\Steam\steamapps\common\Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm\Documents (if you are a steam user).


"Where do you exactly find the data related to any unit in particular?"

For this, go to the Units tabs at the country database (the excel file in each country or faction):

C:\Steam\steamapps\common\Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm\Modules\FPRS\Data (If you are a steam user).

Open the country database excel and go for the National tab. Go to Harware quality values and below that default military unit values, that ranges from 0 to 10. You can only adjust the User database excel for your own custom scenarios and campaings.

For the in-game scenarios (use a different excel, locked for modding), you can only adjust training, morale and readiness adjusting the unit parameters (right click in the unit counter when in the scenario editor). Just open a scenario in the editor for that, mod it, and save it (do a backup copy just in case to keep the originals safe).

"I tried the editor but such things as equipment, like thermals, isn't available there"

For this go as well to the Units tabs at the country database:

C:\Steam\steamapps\common\Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm\Modules\FPRS\Data (If you are a steam user).

Open the country database excel and go for the Units tab. At sensors column you can add things or delete things for example to each unit.

See the modding guide for all the sensors and other goodies nomenclature.

"I am interested in the order delay times each side has in particular, IMO the time for WP to follow orders WP has been overestimated at the point to make them irresponsive for long periods. Nobody wants to play a side where you give orders and wait for several turns watching the fate of your units whilst your opponent gets all the fun, being able to react and give orders that will be obeyed each time!"

I understand you on that, I feel the same. Although this game is a command oriented strategy game, I also find the delay system very harsh to me. Unfortunately, there is no way to mod the delay factor, but there is an exploitation to overcome that (some will argue that this is very gamey or cheeting, but this actually makes the game a lot more fun to me, not necessarily easy). The exploitation is to set the 3 waypoints for a unit, confirm the order and then delete the first waypoint. That way you will have in general 4 min delay only. The ETA will still be impacted by training, morale, terrain and some other factors.

Hope that helps. sorry if something is still a little bit confusing, english is not my native language.

First of all, have fun! This is one of my favorite war games and I mostly play the soviets, not because any political reason...!...but beacuse I am a big fan of russian hardware...T-80 is just a sexy beast for me for example...hehehe

Cheers,

[DeletedUser1676996457]

Panta_slith, as a WP player, as we normally are in the attack in the scenarios in-game, never ever fight in open terrain. Specially with infantry, for some reason WP infantry feels very less resistent than NATO.

I always avoid open terrain at all costs, even if that implies taking a longer route. See the image below in an scenario I won. See the yellow arrows representing the route I took. Decisive success against West Germans...Rommel´s historic old unit took another blow in 89!

Always look for cities and forests...take longer, but worth the effort. Oh and Arty and Air support are your best friends! Make NATO units scream in fear with that prior the advance!

Cheers!

[KungPao]

Hi Panta_slith
Have faith in WP units. With carefully planning, rest and refit, well coordinate with Arty, WP units can be nasty.
yes, in the game T80B1 may be mediocre, everything else that ends with [m] could be a deadly opponent. I have seen a whole platoon shiny new M1 wiped out by AT-11 fired 5000m away, the poor M1 didn't get a chance to fire even one shot! as a WP player I have achieved great victory in PBEM, in some of game I have killed twice of Nato units than the unit I lost.

I am playing with a friend the A Test of Wills scenario and found out that the T-80's thermal sights are unable to see under the rain beyond 500m, something that not prevents NATO units from firing and hitting their targets from several hexes of distance.

I guess what you experienced is the most frustration moment for any WP player, caught in a bad position in a bad weather. In a light rain, you can only see 2000m (4 hex), but NATO units with TI can see 3000-3500m away. In a heavy rain, sometime it produces a frustration situation that makes you want to throw your mouse onto the screen ---- you can only see 1 hex away, units with TI can shot target 2 hex away.

[DeletedUser1676996457]

Good advices KungPao. Playing with WP is very different that of NATO. Fun to learn it as well.

Move-resuply-move...find a good spot and hold. Locate enemy AD and arty asap. Once eliminated, raze hell with your own arty and air assets as well.

Get close. T-80BV can be as deadly as well. Get close. The only real advantage of NATO is thermals. They will shoot first normally. So use the terrain and get close.

Cheers

[Panta_slith]

Perhaps I asked the game too much, I wanted it to be like a military simulator, but I guess that many of the prejudices of the developers concerning the WP forces were embedded in the game. TacOps, an unfortunately outdated military simulation developped by US Marines Major (r) Holdrige and employed by the US Marines, the US Cavalry and the Canadian Army had a civilian version around which a small but active community of players, many of them in the military or with a military background, was a game that didn't make concessions in that sense. Other than the hardware or the orbat differences, the results depended solely on the players (it was meant to be played in a military network as a training tool) tactics and skills. And of course you had to employ the tactics the respective military manuals imposed.
I know that there are ways to avoid the shortcomings of FPG, but for that you don't have to employ standard military tactics, by the book. Try to apply the WP attack formations described in the US FM military manuals, as any WP commander would, and then tell me what happens. A wargame that doesn't allow you to simulate or reproduce the battles as they would or were is just a game you play for fun or self gratification.
FGR has many good things we can enjoy, I guess that with just some precise adjustments and carefully balanced scenarios can far better.

[Panta_slith]

Rincon, your English is very good, actually I speak Portuguese fluently, having lived or worked in BraZil for 14 years, but keeping chatting in English will allow everybody to follow the topic.
Thank you for your tips, I have just watched the databases as you explained me to do and found a few interesting things I can tweak a little to make, hopefully, more (IMO) balanced H2H scenarios. For instance, the r/l Soviets employ artillery massively, as they did with great success during WW2. In FPG WP artillery is far less effective than NATO's, and I am not referring to special ordenance, of course. I am sure that you know what implies the expression "rolling barrage". I don't think you could use an advance following a rolling barrage with much success in FPG.
I will make a few experiments with some values (not related to the hardware, though) to see if I can use FPG more like a simulator and less as a game, like I people do with Steel Beasts Pro PE (I created a few scenarios for it that you still can find in their website). I had considered shelving FPG again out of disappointment (I even reactivated Battlefront's Red Thunder to pbem with my wargaming friend-opponent, but thanks to you maybe I will eventually find a way.

[DeletedUser1676996457]

Panta_slith, nice, by the way, I am actually fluent in Spanish as well. I have never been in Uruguay (I want to visit that beautiful country one day), but part of my family is from Colombia, so I have Spanish as my second mother/native language.

I understand what you say. This is a game with the developers vision of a cold war gone hot. I know they have put a lot of research in it, but in the end it's their vision of WP and the conflict. For me, personally, I do not agree 100%, but find this game really enjoyable and a very nice piece of work. It is a what if scenario, no one knows at the end how that would unfold in real life, but the guesses here are well researched. There is also always some western bias in it, but as I mentioned, it is a really well researched game.

I do a lot of tweaking to adjust the game to my liking, but even the original conditions are fun to play when you learn the mechanics.

Cheers