Case Blue: Unwinnable?

[dmixer]

Trying the Case Blue (full) map.

Is this set up so the Germans have no chance of winning? Within a few turns, the Russians have destroyed the middle and are pouring troops through the gap. I can grind forward up top, hold the bottom, but middle is a lost cause.

I can see absolutely no way for the Germans to even have a chance of capturing any of the objectives, the Russians just have endless waves of troops.

Am I playing this wrong? Is it set up so that the objectives are unreachable, and you are just trying not to lose what you started with?

[dmixer]

Sorry... didn't realize how frustrated I was when I posted that.

Anyway, I'm sticking with my original question. The Soviet lines in the Case Blue match are a tough nut to crack. I can force them back up north, but it's slow going after the first turn.. usually just a few hexes here and there.

In the middle, the Sovs a;ways punch two big holes. While I can usually cut them off and chop them up, the middle is a lost cause, with no hope of advancement.

The south... ahh the south. If I try and do any offensive actions in the south, the Sovs crush it with massive reinforcements.

Played.. lord.. all day, and restarted 3 times. There really seems to be no possible way to capture even one of the objectives. I can get close to the north one... but by then the German casualites are so high it's a lost cause.

Anyone figure out just what the heck you are supposed to do with this map?!!

[Keunert]

are you talking about Uranus? i played Case Blue Short on normal settings to the end and had a major victory.

[sanderz]

i assume he means the Case Blue campaign (not Uranus)

i am only on turn 3 - its very tough and whilst i have some breakthroughs i'm not optimistic

i haven't experienced any soviet counter attacks in the centre though - or is it too early for that?

[Keunert]

i made major breakthroughs in the center and in the northern part of the map resulting in huge pockets. the soviets made some counterattacks in the area of Rostov. Rostov area was a stalemate until the armor of center swung south and assisted in putting pressure on the defenders there.

[sanderz]

also got a major breakthrough in North but mud on turn 3 isn't helping - so not sure if i will be able to swing south for a big pocket - its possible though as the middle part of the soviet line hasn't retreated

mini breakthroughs in other parts of the line and some minor pockets - am hoping the line will crack in the next few turns


Keunert - any chance of a screen shot? Also, what turn was the pocket created?

[Keunert]

i repost some screens from beta testing Case Blue Short. Situation August 5th North/Center:

[Keunert]

South: the pocket was later successfully created

[Keunert]

and here casualties at the end of the scenario:

[Keunert]

to be honest i think Germany should rather get less oil and have more troubles when not reaching major goals in time once you are more familiar with the game. have to try mp, that will surely be a completely different story.

[sanderz]

thanks for that - gives me some hope as i am only on turn 3

[dmixer]

Yah.. I'm talking the Case Blue(Full) scenario. Any attempt at punching through the soviet lines results in the troops being cut off and eliminated.

Even if I keep the line strong throughout to prevent Russian breakthroughs, the German possible advance is small...at best. Capturing half a dozen hexes a turn... much less any actual line advancement.

I would really like to here from anyone that has had any success with this, cause right now I'm thinking its a non starter for the Germans.

[dmixer]

Blah, Im throwing in the towel for now on this. Got to middle of July and then Russian troops started falling out of the sky. I had pushed the lines back about halfway, then everything just collapsed from the weight of the Russian hoard.

I'll try one of the short scenarios next week, but as for now, Case Blue (Full) is a no win match for the Germans.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi DMixer,

Maybe you could describe your playstyle for us? Do you use all the tools at your disposal in the game (especially the commander actions and card options) to maximize success and maintain tempo?

Regards,

- Erik

[sullafelix]

Please do remember that historically the Soviets had massed and were attempting a very large offensive manuever out of the Izium bridgehead.

So in the beginning playing as the Germans it is kind of touch and go in the middle of the map.

One of the best things about DCCB is that historical tactics and strategy do work. So your main goal as the German player is to put a hurting on as many Soviets as possible early on. In the historical campaign once the Soviets got a bloody nose at Kharkov they retreated fast enough so that they didn't suffer any encirclements as in 1941. So their troops were still alive and fighting as the winter approached.

Playing as the German player in the Uranus scenario or the campaigns you find out quickly how bad the equipment and training was in some of the axis satellite nations. So as the German player you are even more outnumbered than it looks at first.

[dmixer]

Hmm... I use arty and air to soften up the big stacks... try and concentrate on a few key spots to force breakthroughs, cut off and chop up Soviet incursions..

You know, typical wargame stuff [:)]

One thing I have noticed is that air power in this game is very weak compared to.. other games or real life. I've sent my entire airforce against one hex... and it did nothing but reduce cover by about 50, and cause no damage. In the real battle, the Germans destroyed an entire armored column with air strikes and here it's more of an annoyance then anything!

Same with arty. The Russians called artillery "The Queen of the battlefield". Again, not so much here. Maybe it's the scale of the game? Units involved just too big to be really affected by air or artillery?

Russian reserves are truly monsterous in this scenario, so attempts to create pockets usually just gets overwhelmed and the forward units cut off and destroyed. Sum it all up, and you have my experience! lol

Game is well crafted, no doubt about it. You can tell lots of effort went into OoB and getting the 'feel' of a monster wargame into a computer game. No complaints there, I'm just frustrated at how ... hopeless the German position is in this scenario. Like I said, I'll have some time next week, and I'll try one of the other matches, maybe the Germans are more evenly matched in those.

[sanderz]

On the subject of air/artillery - can't say i have experienced your problem as quite often ( not all attacks) there will be 'red' kills

On the campaign as a whole i'm only on turn 6 but its looking very difficult as the Germans - i'm hoping there will be a sudden 'break point' following a few mini pockets where they all run for the hills and i can take some of the PP objectives.

[Vic]

Hi dmixer,

Well I could not win Case Blue playing the Soviets. Read this AAR on the Armchair General:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/decisive ... report.htm

And I designed the game...

Please try playing the scenario on 'easy AI' level.

Furthermore... playing Case Blue against the Soviet AI might in the start be more difficult than playing against a human player since the AI will not try to pull back to the Don but fight where it is.
It is essential to make breakthroughs. you must focus your panzers on the weakest part of the line. It might seem hard, but once you have a good breakthrough it will be a huge problem for the Soviets.

Best,
Vic

[ComradeP]

My very limited experience with the game thus far seems to indicate that the game is more challenging for the Germans than the majority of other wargames in terms of their relative strength compared to the Soviets. I haven't touched the Case Blue scenario yet, but will at some point in August (probably).

Keunert: did you play the full scenario and did you win in August by capturing the autovictory objectives?

As to artillery and air power: although I see the need to make sure they're not superweapons, the performance of artillery in particular makes things difficult for the Germans because the drop in artillery effectiveness increases losses during attacks which inevitably favours the side that gets the most replacements:the Soviets. A 50% artillery effectiveness for 3 turns before it returning to 100% could already make a significant difference over the 25%-50%-75%-100% system in place now (unless I don't understand the rules correctly).

It's all about averages in the long run and I'd much rather have a reduced effectiveness on the third turn after using the artillery compared to the current effectiveness than a 25% effectiveness on the first turn after using it. That is however just my first opinion based on what I've seen in the first two scenarios of the 1st Panzer Army linked campaign, so it might very well change.

The system is better than TAOW's anyway, where you could shell a unit with everything you have and it would result in 1 element being destroyed.

[Keunert]

I played the Case Blue Short variant. I missed Stalingrad and didn't reach Rostow on time but i got still a major victory. at the end of July the soviet front was no continuous front anymore, i managed to kill around 650'000 soviets while only losing about 100'000 germans. st the end of August germany fielded around twice as many troops as the soviets.

the german strategy should rely on mobility and the creation of Kessel. artillery and airstrikes are needed to soften ennemy positions before groundattacks. even though they do not inflict lots of losses the reduction of readiness and entrenchment will lower the losses of the attacker and increase the defenders losses in the battles on ground. they aren't very usefull on their own. with the exception of divebombers vs tanks.

i am an experienced but rather average player. Case Blue Short definately is winnable on normal settings. but it sure does require that you are familiar with the game mechanics.