quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

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50caliberGhost
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quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by 50caliberGhost »

Correct me if im wrong just found out about the mq-1 gray eagle / gbu-69 combo to attack sa21 or s400 sam sites. It seems like the newest cheapest safest way to do it anyone know a better way? tomahawks are $1 mil per missile and require lots of them, manned f35s/sdb's would be dangerous to pilots. Ive wargamed every method I can find but was able to sneak up on an s400 from low altitude pretty easy without jamming using gray eagle. Of course cutting off food or ammo supplies would be even easier but not easily represented in cmo.
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Gunner98
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by Gunner98 »

Is your target S-400 alone or does it have all the supporting layers, radars, jammers and CAP that accompany it in an IADS? An MQ-1 is pretty slow
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50caliberGhost
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by 50caliberGhost »

you're right it did not have the extra radars, jammers, CAP or other sam sites protecting it, a 1992-2017 basic triumf with attached cheeseboard and gravestone radars only. I had two gray eagles ingress until about 50nm from the s400, then pop up to 2000' altitude for gbu-69 missile launch and return to base. It would require an rc135 or decoys activating it beforehand to allow a target lock.

f35s might be better overall to defeat the jamming and CAP quicker than slow eagles with jammers.

Guess we're not quite ready to take the 'man out of the loop'.
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by Gunner98 »

Yeah, the real strength of an S-400 is that it is a lynchpin of a system. Alone it is ... well alone. As part of a system there are several elements that will turn the MQ-1 into confetti before it reaches launch point.
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bsq
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by bsq »

The problem with the in game S-400 (and for that matter the S-300P, PMU etc) is that game limits make it a wonder weapon, that it most certainly is not.

Flaplid (Top Dome), Tombstone, Gravestone FCRs are space fed arrays. They have a transmit side and a blind side... BUT because they have the ability to rotate quickly, unlike the Patriot FCR, they are modelled with a 360 WEZ. Reallity is that once they are aligned and commited to an engagment in a single direction, more than half the remaining arc is not visible to the FCR, whilst those engagement continue to intercept.

IRL, you launch a multiple axis attack with identical weapon TOT with enough weapons to keep the radar busy on just one of those axes and your target FCR is toast.

In the game your can set up a multiple axis attack and you can watch the system unrealistically atrit the inbound weapons in all directions at once.

I offer this here, because I mentioned this way back with CMNAO and was told that it was too difficult to model the reality of how these space feed arrays work. S-400 etc remain too expensive to kill in a conventional manner that reflects real life.
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by BDukes »

bsq wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:05 pm The problem with the in game S-400 (and for that matter the S-300P, PMU etc) is that game limits make it a wonder weapon, that it most certainly is not.

Flaplid (Top Dome), Tombstone, Gravestone FCRs are space fed arrays. They have a transmit side and a blind side... BUT because they have the ability to rotate quickly, unlike the Patriot FCR, they are modelled with a 360 WEZ. Reallity is that once they are aligned and commited to an engagment in a single direction, more than half the remaining arc is not visible to the FCR, whilst those engagement continue to intercept.

IRL, you launch a multiple axis attack with identical weapon TOT with enough weapons to keep the radar busy on just one of those axes and your target FCR is toast.

In the game your can set up a multiple axis attack and you can watch the system unrealistically atrit the inbound weapons in all directions at once.

I offer this here, because I mentioned this way back with CMNAO and was told that it was too difficult to model the reality of how these space feed arrays work. S-400 etc remain too expensive to kill in a conventional manner that reflects real life.
Have you tried it in the new version?

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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by bsq »

Just now, after your message.

No change to game behaviour even though my 'eyeballed' twin axis attack (W and E) were a little off in timing (West arrived a couple of mins early), as soon as the wave from the East was detected, the S-400 started spitting missiles in both directions which, IRL, is not possible.

Demonstrable, repeatable and exactly as before :(
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by BDukes »

bsq wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:37 pm Just now, after your message.

No change to game behaviour even though my 'eyeballed' twin axis attack (W and E) were a little off in timing (West arrived a couple of mins early), as soon as the wave from the East was detected, the S-400 started spitting missiles in both directions which, IRL, is not possible.

Demonstrable, repeatable and exactly as before :(
Ok best bet is to post the save up in tech support. Nobody is going to do squat unless they have eyes on something actionable.
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by bsq »

I'll give it a go, but dont hold out much hope.

The problem is that the Russian FCR's, whether on the vehicle or on the TET, have a mechanical 360 ability and an electronically scanned sector. BUT it has to maintain tracking by pointing at least in the same bit of sky as its target at all times up until the head goes active (even then with TVM it needs to know where the target is for TVM to work) or to illuminate in the case of the SAGG missiles.

I was told, it was a game limit. They either make work like MPQ-53 (which would be limiting) or they leave it like a 'finger of God'.

So for the OP, this system is harder to take out than it should be IRL no matter how you try.
bsq
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by bsq »

Bug report submitted.
thewood1
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by thewood1 »

bsq wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:03 pm I'll give it a go, but dont hold out much hope.

The problem is that the Russian FCR's, whether on the vehicle or on the TET, have a mechanical 360 ability and an electronically scanned sector. BUT it has to maintain tracking by pointing at least in the same bit of sky as its target at all times up until the head goes active (even then with TVM it needs to know where the target is for TVM to work) or to illuminate in the case of the SAGG missiles.

I was told, it was a game limit. They either make work like MPQ-53 (which would be limiting) or they leave it like a 'finger of God'.

So for the OP, this system is harder to take out than it should be IRL no matter how you try.
In a regiment of S-400s, wouldn't there be multiple FCR radars like Grave Stone? Would they be covering different sectors to allow that focus and multi-target engagement?
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bsq
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by bsq »

Not how its deployed. It belongs to the Air Defence Forces (ex PVO) and it is deployed in batteries like this one at Dhzankoy in North East Crimea. Look at any S-400 deployment. 1 FCR, 1 SSR, 8 to 12 TELS. Then 1 BMR per 2 or 3 batteries. Sure they can overlap, but not so much they can defend against low flying CM's trying to take them out and at no point do they have full 360 coverage at any given moment.
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Adagosto
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by Adagosto »

So if we are building scenarios we should avoid the S300/S400 SAMs?

I went back through the tutorials. They are pretty fun all on their own. But, I think it's called Laser Dance (tutorial #4) has the two Harriers and an SA-10. I've been trying different assets and load outs to see what works. The best aircraft that consistently did the most damage was the Apache. A single ship could get the hellfire off, but I could never keep him alive. I need 3 AH-64's to kill it.

Regardless of CMO modeling, the OP still asked an interesting question. So I think the answer is a 4 ship Apache group.

Fun stuff!
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by bsq »

Adagosto wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:10 am So if we are building scenarios we should avoid the S300/S400 SAMs?
Just be aware that, right now, they are over powered.
Adagosto wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:10 am Regardless of CMO modeling, the OP still asked an interesting question. So I think the answer is a 4 ship Apache group.
As for the Apache scenario against a single S-400, it cost me all the Hellfires I had and 5 AH-64E's. Taking the UK's purchase of 50 units for 2.3 Billion, that's $46 million a helo. So thats around a $230 million price tag for a single S-400 plus 5 pilots and 5 gunners lost too :shock:

There has to be a better way, just got to find it.
Adagosto
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by Adagosto »

Haha....well no one can argue that point!!!

In my case I was going up against the S300 and I used two AH-64E.

But I also tried several times with different approach angles. So my losses were significantly higher than yours.
thewood1
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by thewood1 »

Don't forget that an S-400 and all of its missiles isn't cheap either. I thinks its now estimated $5B for a regiment. Not sure how much that balances it.
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bsq
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by bsq »

Indeed but its all about not losing lives doing it.

Best to date:

Confuse the radars with several AGM-160C's

Then a large enough strike of missiles whilst the radars are being jammed or decoyed.

Best weapons so far seem to be

109Ds - only need 2 or 3 to completely take out the site, so a wave of 24 to 36 plus MALD's will do it.
109Es - need more to destroy the site but I think this is a bug
109Fs - flys lower, picked up later but still need many to get all components
158Bs - stealthy (but seems to make little difference in game as they are picked up at the same range as the 109's) and still need quite a few to flatten site

Tried it with 6 x F-35A with a total of 48 SDBII. All strikes acheived weapons on site (up to 12) but not one of the 10 runs I tried eliminated the Grave Stone despite the weapon having IIR plus active RF seeker.

Look at the picture I posted of the site. An IIR seeker should take the FCR. The frag should likely damage or destroy the rest of site. These big missile warheads dont seem to do the damage they should given the S-300/400 sites are minimum 68 metres and maximum 172 metres in diameter (I measured around 50% of the Russian and Belarussian sites using GE). The one shown, for reference, is 126 metres across. A single 109 over the FCR, should shred the entire site.

Next round of testing will be to try against a blended target (VHF radar + Battle Management Radar + Pantsyr + S-400)
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SeaQueen
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by SeaQueen »

50caliberGhost wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:34 pm Correct me if im wrong just found out about the mq-1 gray eagle / gbu-69 combo to attack sa21 or s400 sam sites. It seems like the newest cheapest safest way to do it anyone know a better way? tomahawks are $1 mil per missile and require lots of them, manned f35s/sdb's would be dangerous to pilots. Ive wargamed every method I can find but was able to sneak up on an s400 from low altitude pretty easy without jamming using gray eagle. Of course cutting off food or ammo supplies would be even easier but not easily represented in cmo.
Glorious. Now you know why an effective IADS is composed to lots of different systems, operating at lots of different ranges, at lots of different frequency bands, in multiple layers. If you think about CMO as being a game of system-versus-system, eventually you start finding stuff like this. A more realistic way to think about it is as groups of systems versus groups of systems.

Very long SAM systems like the SA-21 and SA-23 don't act by themselves. They're supported by a network of C2 vehicles, ASV radars, and defended by multiple layers of SAMs that act in mutual support of each other. Try playing around with different ideas on how to integrate different SAM systems and radars.
bsq
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by bsq »

SeaQueen wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:46 pm Very long SAM systems like the SA-21 and SA-23 don't act by themselves. They're supported by a network of C2 vehicles, ASV radars, and defended by multiple layers of SAMs that act in mutual support of each other. Try playing around with different ideas on how to integrate different SAM systems and radars.
True, but...

Oh if only this were modelled in CMO, it's not

So to use your statements out of sequence
SeaQueen wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:46 pm ...A more realistic way to think about it is as groups of systems versus groups of systems.
Which is what it is, right now, a group of disparate units which cannot really lend mutual support because they dont talk to each other sharing their pictures/tracks. I know they are planning to fix this, but without:
  • A realistic C3 model
  • A realistic TVM/SAGG model for active terminal guided missiles (another fix in the pipeline)
We are all going to employ either logic, or knowledge and be confused or surprised at the results.

BTW, to me, cheapest means not giving the otherside anything to boast about or parade in front of the media. Missiles and a decent strike editor/targeteers tool is the way ahead. These systems can be saturated, yes it will cost a lot of weapons per site, but it should not be the case that you have to force it to empty its RtF weapons in order to attack again during the reload cycle.
thewood1
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Re: quickest cheapest way to defeat s400 system

Post by thewood1 »

With some effort and some good planning, you can build a very reasonable facsimile of a fully integrated air defense system. Its not just plopping down units and expecting them to be connected or integrated. CMO gives the scenario designer the tools to do it. Sides, postures, comms, events, lua, etc. are all available to make a very detailed system of systems. You can do it without heavy lua. Just a few action scripts associated with events and zones.

But the designer needs to put the effort into it. That means knowing CMO capabilities and limitations, along with a country's air defense doctrine and capabilties. That combination is not common. I personally know just enough to be a hindrance in either.
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