Kearsarge Comes to Pemba Island, 1967 -- new beta for testing

[Mgellis]

It's been a while, but here is a new beta for people to test.

It's a slightly alternate version of the Cold War--the big change is that the Soviet Union invested more heavily in their African allies during the 1960s and 1970s. When global tensions increase in 1967, a carrier group centered around Kearsarge is sent to investigate Soviet forces based at Tanzania.

As always, I am interested in any feedback people can provide. How well does this play? Is it sufficiently challenging? Too hard? Too easy? Are the orders clear? Do the events function properly? Is the whole thing plausible enough that people can suspend any disbelief and enjoy the scenario? (Kearsarge is an ASW carrier at this point, but since CINCPAC is initially not expecting hostilities and only wants to gather intelligence, and let the Soviets know we're watching them in East Africa, sending her with a few escorts, and letting her borrow a couple of squadrons from Forrestal seems reasonable.) Anything else I can do to make the scenario better, more challenging, more fun, more interesting, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

Version 3 submitted 2:00 PM CST September 12, 2024

Pemba 1.JPG (321.67 KiB) Viewed 638 times

[HalfLifeExpert]

A most excellent first impression!

Will report back after completing a playthrough, though I had a look at the scenario platform list and there doesn't seem to be any biologics/false contacts.

Given that there are Soviet subs in the scenario, I feel that there should be at least a few bits of underwater nature so as to not make ASW unrealistically straightforward.


Also, perhaps the scenario description should also mention an alternate and early expansion of the Soviet Navy, due to the presence of ****REDACTED********

Maybe Khrushchev agreed to Gorshkov's proposals in the 50s instead of his hand being forced by the 1962 Quarantine of Cuba

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've completed my first playthrough. I will give most details in a PM to Mark so as to not spoil certain aspects of the scenario.

Overall I think this is good, but some work on the events and Soviet behavior may be in order, in addition to my prior comments.

[Mgellis]

I've completed my first playthrough. I will give most details in a PM to Mark so as to not spoil certain aspects of the scenario.

Overall I think this is good, but some work on the events and Soviet behavior may be in order, in addition to my prior comments.

Excellent comments. Thank you. I've implemented most of the changes you've suggested and added a few more minor ones that should make things a little more challenging. I'll post a revised version in a couple of days.

Thanks again.

[Mgellis]

Just posted version 2. Some minor changes implemented, including a change in Soviet bombers. For some reason, the Tu-22s would not attack and I could not figure out what I was doing wrong with them, so I have replaced them with Bisons, which do not seem to have this problem. I don't think it was a database error as much as a difference between the sensors on the two aircraft (or their missiles) that was causing the problem. (Of course, now there is the issue that a lot more missiles will be flying towards the American ships, but that's the kind of issue we want in Command, isn't it? )

Again, I hope people will post feedback on the scenario. Is it ready for the Community Scenario Pack at this point or are there other changes, corrections, etc. that should be made? Thanks in advance.

[Nikel]

Thanks for the new scenario!

I am learning a lot and find it fascinating because the timing is the transition from classic ADs to missile ships.



SPOILERS, SO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED IT YET.

OK, some comments, stuff I learned, etc.


I would like more details in the scenario description on why are the russians in Tanzania.

The main problem I found was a discrepancy on the timing between the CINCPAC messages and what is going on in the Indian Ocean.

They arrive too late, I have been engaging the Soviets for a while and the message tell me weapons hold or tight.

The scenario ending (winning) is only by time? I mean I get a triumph by points, the soviet armada is sunk and still no end yet.

If your carrier is sunk and this means the end of the scenario I would expect a bit more of drama in the message text.

The contrary of drama if "the soviet monster" is sunk

When my fleet is located in the waters East of Penga, the Soviet reconnaissance ACs still follow the same route and are easy targets, the MiGs are not very good protecting them. Perhaps this is related with the AI, not the scenario.

The AD of Tanga remained passive when I was already hostile and sent several ACs. For comparison they were active on Penga.

There is a town marker south of Tanga without name and in the water, south of it it is said Pangani in a pier.


What I learned:

Get ready your carrier ACs, you do not know when you will need them and if the carrier is hit perhaps they will not take off.

What may be very powerful in a long range, may be useless in the short range

To identify units is better a low altitude flight, at least in 1967. Or where are my reconnaissance drones?!

The subs are very slow



Not related directly with your scenario but with the engine:

The cruiser Worden was hit but did not sink for a long time, remained out of comms. Sent ACs but did not provide more info on the situation of the ship and could not rescue it.

Where it was located there was a constant "New surface contact..." messages.

Is this what is supposed to happen when a ship comms system is destroyed but the ship is not sunk?

[HalfLifeExpert]

Just posted version 2. Some minor changes implemented, including a change in Soviet bombers. For some reason, the Tu-22s would not attack and I could not figure out what I was doing wrong with them, so I have replaced them with Bisons, which do not seem to have this problem. I don't think it was a database error as much as a difference between the sensors on the two aircraft (or their missiles) that was causing the problem. (Of course, now there is the issue that a lot more missiles will be flying towards the American ships, but that's the kind of issue we want in Command, isn't it? )

Again, I hope people will post feedback on the scenario. Is it ready for the Community Scenario Pack at this point or are there other changes, corrections, etc. that should be made? Thanks in advance.

Sweet! I'll give it a go after work today!

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've played Version 2.

It's definitely more of a challenge now that the Soviet Surface force isn't so close to the Galveston from the start.

A few things I noticed though:

-The Soviet surface force is a little messed up in terms of speed, because the flagship sprinted far ahead of the other 3 vessels at 33kts for no apparent reason, making it VERY vulnerable to air attack.

-Upon hostilities commencing, it seems that some Soviet bombers were already airborne or had just taken off, and well, they inexplicably fired their cruise missiles in apparently random directions northward. Maybe my jamming was doing too good of a job? But those missiles were so off the mark one was headed roughly to Mt. Kilimanjaro!

- The opening distance between the Galveston and the Kearsarge makes defending against the inevitable Shaddock attacks challenging, perhaps a bit TOO challenging? My Phantoms were not able to down any, and the Galveston was only able to bag a couple of them, probably due to range.

-I did spot what I can assume to be a Tanzanian patrol boat approx. to the SW of the Galveston, but after some time it simply came to a full stop and never moved again, probably not intentional, right?

I'll give it another go and report back, but with the Soviet surface force repositioned, perhaps the Galveston and Kearsarge should start somewhat closer together?

[Mgellis]

Thanks for the feedback.

I had not really thought about why the Soviets were in Tanzania beyond wanting more allies, access to critical minerals like cobalt, etc. But I am starting to work on version 3 of the scenario (probably the final version...you can tweak a scenario forever, but eventually it's going to be as good as you can make it and you just have to let it go and stand on its own merits) and will add a sentence or two of further explanation.

The timing issue for messages from CINCPAC is simply that I assume it takes a while for the President to be consulted, etc. Hold already means you are allowed to shoot back if someone is shooting at you. Tight means you are allowed to shoot first, but you have to make sure what you're aiming at is actually hostile. There is another level called Weapons Free, but I usually don't use that in orders because it basically means you can shoot at anything that isn't known to be friendly, even when you don't know what it is, so I figure you only get a weapons release like that in the most dire of circumstances. (If anyone out there is an actual military officer and I'm using this wrong, please let me know.)

I agree that the Cold War is a fascinating period. For me one thing that is intriguing is the large number of different platforms that never got tested in actual combat.

I left the end of the scenario mostly open-ended so that people could choose how they would pursue their mission goals. I'm assuming the US does not know much about what the Soviets currently have in Tanzania...that's why the Kearsarge was initially sent to take a look. But I will clarify that in the messages (i.e., CINCPAC will let the player know there is a time limit, etc.)

Issues with the SAMs and the aircraft may be due to the AI, but I will check to see if there are any mission settings I can use that will improve things.

You're not supposed to attack the towns, so they are mostly markers so player knows where they are/groups of infrastructure civilians need/etc. There may be Soviet mobile ground units nearby that you can attack, though.

Again, thanks for the feedback. I will probably post version 3 sometime next week.

Thanks for the new scenario!

I am learning a lot and find it fascinating because the timing is the transition from classic ADs to missile ships.



SPOILERS, SO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED IT YET.

OK, some comments, stuff I learned, etc.


I would like more details in the scenario description on why are the russians in Tanzania.


The main problem I found was a discrepancy on the timing between the CINCPAC messages and what is going on in the Indian Ocean.

They arrive too late, I have been engaging the Soviets for a while and the message tell me weapons hold or tight.

The scenario ending (winning) is only by time? I mean I get a triumph by points, the soviet armada is sunk and still no end yet.

If your carrier is sunk and this means the end of the scenario I would expect a bit more of drama in the message text.

The contrary of drama if "the soviet monster" is sunk

When my fleet is located in the waters East of Penga, the Soviet reconnaissance ACs still follow the same route and are easy targets, the MiGs are not very good protecting them. Perhaps this is related with the AI, not the scenario.

The AD of Tanga remained passive when I was already hostile and sent several ACs. For comparison they were active on Penga.

There is a town marker south of Tanga without name and in the water, south of it it is said Pangani in a pier.


What I learned:

Get ready your carrier ACs, you do not know when you will need them and if the carrier is hit perhaps they will not take off.

What may be very powerful in a long range, may be useless in the short range

To identify units is better a low altitude flight, at least in 1967. Or where are my reconnaissance drones?!

The subs are very slow



Not related directly with your scenario but with the engine:

The cruiser Worden was hit but did not sink for a long time, remained out of comms. Sent ACs but did not provide more info on the situation of the ship and could not rescue it.

Where it was located there was a constant "New surface contact..." messages.

Is this what is supposed to happen when a ship comms system is destroyed but the ship is not sunk?

[Nikel]

Thanks for the detailed explanations.


The timing reminded me to Napoleon when he wanted to manage the Peninsular War seated from Paris, he sent dispatches from outdated info and when they arrived to Spain or Portugal they were outdated because the situation has already changed, repeat.

I did not attack the towns, but the soviet forces in the port and at land.

This is the pic displaying the no name town marker in the water, and Pangani in a Pier.

T.png (7.01 KiB) Viewed 209 times

The game does not display any pic for the S-2E tracker aircraft, even though there is one for Aircraft 259, is it also happening to you?


Found this CIA document detailing the situation of Russia and China Navies and Air forces in 1967. It is difficult to read and in your scenario the russian forces are already deployed, so not sure you may extract useful data. Just a curiosity.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0054-7.pdf


Strangely, a similar document for the second half of the year is empty.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CI ... 0011-6.pdf

[Nikel]

-Upon hostilities commencing, it seems that some Soviet bombers were already airborne or had just taken off, and well, they inexplicably fired their cruise missiles in apparently random directions northward. Maybe my jamming was doing too good of a job? But those missiles were so off the mark one was headed roughly to Mt. Kilimanjaro!

I have seen russian missiles heading to American naval forces that turned course, but with the scenario far more advanced, also thought that there was the jamming effect of the Vigilantes, but not sure because other times they were not so effective.

A page dedicated to the Vigilantes ACs.

https://www.airvectors.net/ava5.html

[Mgellis]

Just uploaded version 3. I made a few changes, put the Galveston group a little closer to the carrier, changed the briefing format (I've been told the DIMS (daily intent messages) format is preferable...and it does seem like it will be easier for players without military experience to understand), etc.

Please take a look. I'm assuming this version is pretty much ready to go and unless there are errors, issues, etc. that still have to be dealt with, I will probably send it to the Community Scenario Pack in a week or so.

Thanks for all your help!

[HalfLifeExpert]

Just uploaded version 3. I made a few changes, put the Galveston group a little closer to the carrier, changed the briefing format (I've been told the DIMS (daily intent messages) format is preferable...and it does seem like it will be easier for players without military experience to understand), etc.

Please take a look. I'm assuming this version is pretty much ready to go and unless there are errors, issues, etc. that still have to be dealt with, I will probably send it to the Community Scenario Pack in a week or so.

Thanks for all your help!

Will give it a go in a couple hours when I'm off work.

FYI I was just fine with the previous briefing format you were using (and I've never served in any military force), but I'll see how the new format is.

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've completed a playthrough on Version 3.

It was a hard fight, but I lost practically my entire force save for my two subs.

These are the standout issues:

1) Is the Soviet surface force supposed to break up and all 4 ships operate independently? That seems to happen every time. While the two larger Soviet ships can withstand some punishment, I'd think they'd still want SAM cover from the destroyers right?

2) I don't know if this is a Scenario issue or an issue with Command itself (I'm not running any beta), but ZERO of my ship's SAMs, (Galveston, Barney, or Carrier escorts) were able to hit any Shaddocks fired at them or the carrier. One Phantom was able to blast one Shaddock with a Sparrow, and several of the Shaddocks were apparently spoofed by Jamming, but I lost Barney to a Shaddock, as well as Galveston taking a serious hit and my AOE being crippled and immobile.

3) For the Soviet's Air-Launched ASCMs, I don't think any of my assets were able to engage them, since they are VERY supersonic (1980kts), and I lost one of my carrier's escorts to them. Additionally, the first salvos of them, as before, strangely fired northward along the African coast, far from any of my assets at nothing in particular.

I wasn't really able to go after any of the land/anchorage targets because I had my hands full trying to knock out the Soviet Flagship (and the other ships), and damned she really withstood ALOT of hits, including 4x Bullpup Bs, and MANY Mk82s. Was ultimately not able to destroy her before I lost Kearsarge to a follow-up bomber missile attack.

Never got into any proper Air-to-Air engagements against MiG-21s save for one 2v2 battle in which I did win.

While the failure against Shaddocks COULD be a current Command issue rather than this scenario, I feel that the Soviet bombers kind of break the scenario. Perhaps swap them for fighter-bombers or shorter range sub-sonic missiles?

I'm afraid this could use some more time in the oven.