Team Chicago Gets Busy, 1974 - new beta for testing

[Mgellis]

A new beta scenario for testing...

It is 1974 and the Cold War just got hot. You are in command of a surface group centered around the cruiser Chicago and some air assets at Clark AFB. Your job is to find and destroy a Soviet task force in the South China Sea.

As always, please let me know what you think. What issues, problems, errors, etc. need to be fixed? Are there additional forces that should be added or removed at Clark AFB, etc.? What else can be done to make this a more interesting and more challenging scenario?

Thanks in advance!

[Version 4 submitted 4:30 PM CST 10/14/2022]

[HalfLifeExpert]

OH YES!

Just saw this post and I must now close down the ASW scenario I was running to jump into this.

Can't wait to fire it up!


UPDATE: I've loaded it up and the setup is great! Can't wait to see what happens.

[HalfLifeExpert]

I've been running it for a little bit. I've got my first ELINT Contact on the Soviets and preparing to setup for battle, though It may take some time to get in position.

The area of operations got me thinking though:

This scenario is set in 1974. South Vietnam is still there. Sure part of their territory is under PAVN occupation, but they still have some assets, and the ceasefire is loosely holding.

I don't know if it would massively impact the gameplay, but why not include some South Vietnamese Support?

They're not used very often in Command, and given the situation of the great WWIII having just broken out, I'm sure Saigon would want to do everything it could to please Washington, in hopes of getting help if Hanoi strikes, taking advantage of the NATO-Pact war.

The RVNAF had F-5As, Bs, and Es, and a look at the DB shows that with their 500lb bomb loadouts, they could conceivably be within striking range of the Soviet raiding force. Saigon could also offer an airbase to American aircraft for refueling and emergency landings.

As for the RVN Navy, they didn't have anything that could be of direct use against a Soviet Task Force, but perhaps they could have dispatched one of their DEs and a couple of their frigates toward the Spratlys to ostensibly protect their merchant and fishing traffic. Maybe you could add an AGI for them to go after. If the player inflicts enough damage on the Soviets, perhaps they could be brought in to help finish them off with Gunfire.


Just a couple ideas to consider. Since Republic of Vietnam forces are not seen alot in Command scenarios, I thought it could be a neat little way to make use of them outside the context of fighting Hanoi. They're weakened and not far from the end, but it could be seen as a last attempt to get help to fend off the North Vietnamese. I'd think the US Public wouldn't notice it much with the larger war with the Soviets grabbing all the attention.

[HalfLifeExpert]

Victory!

I've smashed the Soviet Raiding Force, but I did take some unfortunate losses, mainly to my F-4s.

I was able to detect and blast 2x Soviet subs before they could fire on my ships,

As for the Raiding Force. I first hit it with 4x Phantoms armed with Bullpups. The first salvo blasted the Kresta to pieces and crippled a destroyer. I also caused some damage to the Sverdlov in that first attack, but SAMs from a Kashin and the Sverdlov cost me 3 of those 4 Phantoms. A follow up attack with the 2x Phantoms armed with Bullpups and Iron Bombs succeeded in finishing of the rear Kashin and further hurting the Sverdlov, but both Phantoms are lost.

As for my own ships. I used the 8x Talos missiles on Chicago that are ARMs and capable of striking ships at 100nm, but only a couple actually hit.

Before closing to engage, I send the USS Sargo at flank speed to engage the formation with total failure. It's Mk-27s were pretty useless.

I close to engage with 5 inch guns, but the Sverdlov's main guns still work, and my frigate takes some damage, including losing it's helo. I stupidly forgot to enable Surface-To-Surface SAMs, and use those to wipe out the trapped raiding Force.


I very much enjoyed this scenario, but I found my submarine to be pretty useless. At the very least I'd recommend starting it closer to the AO.

I was able to get the Drop on the raiding force very early specifically because of the ELINT equipment on the RF-4s.


My suggestion on the Republic of Vietnam forces from my previous post still stands.


Losses and expenditures

SIDE: United States
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
5x F-4D Phantom II
1x SH-2D Seasprite LAMPS I


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
100x 127mm/54 HE-CVT [HiFrag]
4x AGM-12A Bullpup
8x AGM-12C Bullpup B
8x AN/SSQ-47 Julie Active Range-Only
6x Mk27 Mod 4
4x Mk46 LWT Mod 2
8x RGM-8H Talos
4x RIM-8G Talos
14x RIM-8J Talos
3x RUR-5A Mod 4 ASROC RTT [Mk46 Mod 2]

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------
6x 370 USG Drop Tank
5x 600 USG Drop Tank
10x AIM-7D Sparrow III
8x AN/SSQ-47 Julie Active Range-Only
2x Mk46 LWT Mod 2
12x Mk82 500lb LDGP



SIDE: Soviet Union
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x BDK Alligator [Pr.1171 Tapir]
2x BPK Kashin [Pr.61]
2x Ka-25BSh Hormone A
1x KU Admiral Senyavin
1x PB Don [Pr.310]
1x PLA-671 Victor I [Yorsh]
1x PLARK-670 Charlie I [Skat]
1x RKR Kresta I [Pr.1134 Berkut]
1x SKR Kotlin [Pr.56 Spokoinyy]
1x VT Altay [Pr.160]
1x VTR Boris Chilikin [Pr.1559V]


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
26x 100mm/56 Frag
18x 100mm/70 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
4x 130mm/58 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
40x 152mm/50 Triple AP Salvo [3 rnds]
16x 152mm/50 Triple Frag Salvo [3 rnds]
16x 25mm/80 Twin Burst [20 rnds]
8x 45mm/85 Quad Burst [8 rnds]
20x 57mm/70 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
26x AK-230 30mm/65 Twin Burst [50 rnds]
8x AK-725 57mm/80 Twin HE Burst [6 rnds]
9x AK-726 76mm/60 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
7x Generic Acoustic Decoy
3x Generic Chaff Rocket
26x SA-N-1b Goa [M-1M/P Volna-M/P, 4K91 / V-601]
10x SA-N-4a Gecko [9M33]

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------
374x 100mm/56 Frag
800x 100mm/56 HE
600x 100mm/70 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]
1302x 100mm/70 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
576x 130mm/58 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
400x 130mm/58 Twin SAP Burst [2 rnds]
68x 152mm/50 Triple Frag Salvo [3 rnds]
1288x 25mm/80 Twin Burst [20 rnds]
1784x 45mm/85 Quad Burst [8 rnds]
4x 53-51 Pattern Runner
10x 53-57 Pattern Runner [NATO 53-56]
30x 53-65K WH
700x 57mm/70 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
80x 9M22U [Grad] 122mm Rocket
200x AK-176 76mm/60 Frag Burst [2 rnds]
552x AK-176 76mm/60 HE Burst [2 rnds]
508x AK-230 30mm/65 Twin Burst [50 rnds]
20x AK-630 30mm/65 Gatling Burst [400 rnds]
150x AK-725 57mm/80 Twin Frag Burst [6 rnds]
442x AK-725 57mm/80 Twin HE Burst [6 rnds]
780x AK-726 76mm/60 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]
1011x AK-726 76mm/60 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
23x AT-1M [NATO E45-75A]
8x Depth Charge [Aerial, 80kT Nuclear]
12x Depth Charge [Generic]
6x FRAS-1 [RPK-1 Vikhr, 5kT Nuclear]
89x Generic Acoustic Decoy
181x Generic Chaff Rocket
92x Generic Flare Rocket [Single Spectral]
32x Generic GMTR [Guided Missile Training Round]
48x Generic Towed Torpedo Decoy
88x PK-16 Chaff [TSP-60U]
48x PK-16 Flare [TST-60U]
144x PLAB-250 Depth Charge
20x PLAB-50 Depth Charge
40x RBU-1000 Salvo [6 rnds]
14x RBU-2500 Salvo [16 rnds]
84x RBU-6000 Salvo [12 rnds]
84x RGB-1 [NATO BM-1, Search, Passive Omni]
58x SA-N-1b Goa [M-1M/P Volna-M/P, 4K91 / V-601]
160x SA-N-3a Goblet [4K60]
80x SA-N-4a Gecko [9M33]
24x SA-N-8 Gremlin [9M36]
20x SET-53M [NATO ET-80A[60]]
4x SET-53M [NATO ET-80A[60]]
28x SET-65M Enot-2 [NATO ET-80A[76]]
24x SET-65M Enot-2 [NATO ET-80A[76]]
8x SS-N-14 Silex [70R, AT-2U]
4x SS-N-14 Silex [84R, AT-2UM]
4x SS-N-3c Shaddock [P-35 Progress, ASM]
16x SS-N-7 Starbright [P-70 Ametist]



SIDE: Neutrals
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------



SIDE: Nature
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------

[Mgellis]

Great idea to include South Vietnam. I'll try that out.

[Mgellis]

Just added some South Vietnamese forces (thanks for the suggestion, HalfLifeExpert!) and very interested in finding out how that affects the scenario. Does it make it too easy now that the US has more ships and aircraft available?

Looking forward to your feedback on this version. Thanks!

[Randomizer]

Just added some South Vietnamese forces

I was afraid that you might succumb to this temptation/scenario creep. RVN has been cut off from all US aid and support for the last year and change. Why would Saigon, fighting for its very existence against the NVA as it is, expand their enemies list to include the Soviet Union, particularly now that America, which abandoned them materially and politically, will be busy fighting the Bear in Europe? The scenario is already a cake-walk for the Player, adding South Vietnam merely makes the Players job that much easier.

Anyway a couple of tiny observations as I generally enjoy those big Talos cruisers, so thank you for the scenario.

I am certain that the FRAM Gearings flight deck and hanger were too small for a LAMPS-1 Seasprite. The facilities were intended for the QH-50 DASH (Drone Anti-Submarine Helicopter) and I have never seen any reference or photographs of a Seasprite on any FRAM at any time. The flight deck on a FRAM was called the Dash Deck and the hanger was probably too small for even a LAMPS-1.

https://www.gyrodynehelicopters.com/dash_history.htm

Suggest that you lock the Player reference points.

Suggest that you zoom to a suitable level so that all of the Player assets and patrol area is visible when the scenario loads. Using keys Z and X to a suitable level prior to saving as this tends to prevent the super zoom-in that is present at the scenario start.

Just second opinions and $0.02 CAD.

-C

[tylerblakebrandon]

Not sure about U.S. practice but I found some images of the Pakistani Navy operating Alouette helos.



Also found this found from the Argentine Navy Twitter captioned as a Lynx on one of their FRAM cans.

[Randomizer]

@TylerBlakeBrandon,
Cool, had not considered the exported FRAMS so thanks. Now find a pic with a USN Seasprite operational on an American FRAM and I will gladly climb down.

-C

[Mgellis]

Play nice, children.

Actually, I concede the error. I had forgotten that was typical for the time. The Dash it will be.

[Randomizer]

Play nice, children.

I though that we were. For the record, your scenarios generally ooze authenticity, hence my comments. And just to be clear, I have great respect for HalfLifeExpert's input here and elsewhere in the Forum but do think that he's wrong in this case, that adding RVN assets improves Team Chicago... in any reasonable way.

This speaks to the authenticity stuff and at the risk of sounding pedantic, ask yourself:

1. With MACV long gone, how does the Saigon regime coordinate with the USN? And the USAF at Clark Field?

2. Where did the RVNAF get F-5 strike-fighter pilots trained in over water navigation and maritime strike?

Am also curious as to why the Soviets surface group includes amphibious assault ships coming north from the South China Sea. These seem to be included just to act as missile sponges to eat up the Talos salvos in the SSM mode. If not, it becomes reasonable to make them priority targets for the Player, since 'phibs are a valuable but limited resource while being able to create all sorts of mischief in a general naval conflict. Perhaps the briefing could explain why they're there and what's to be done about them. Recall that the vessels being escorted are almost always more valuable than their escorts and all of the Soviet ships having identical VP values greatly simplifies the Players targeting problem.

Nice little scenario though, but randomized starting positions for the forces would enhance replayability and HLE is correct with his observation on the uselessness of Skate for the player.

-C

[HalfLifeExpert]

Play nice, children.

I though that we were. For the record, your scenarios generally ooze authenticity, hence my comments. And just to be clear, I have great respect for HalfLifeExpert's input here and elsewhere in the Forum but do think that he's wrong in this case, that adding RVN assets improves Team Chicago... in any reasonable way.

This speaks to the authenticity stuff and at the risk of sounding pedantic, ask yourself:

1. With MACV long gone, how does the Saigon regime coordinate with the USN? And the USAF at Clark Field?

2. Where did the RVNAF get F-5 strike-fighter pilots trained in over water navigation and maritime strike?

Am also curious as to why the Soviets surface group includes amphibious assault ships coming north from the South China Sea. These seem to be included just to act as missile sponges to eat up the Talos salvos in the SSM mode. If not, it becomes reasonable to make them priority targets for the Player, since 'phibs are a valuable but limited resource while being able to create all sorts of mischief in a general naval conflict. Perhaps the briefing could explain why they're there and what's to be done about them. Recall that the vessels being escorted are almost always more valuable than their escorts and all of the Soviet ships having identical VP values greatly simplifies the Players targeting problem.

Nice little scenario though, but randomized starting positions for the forces would enhance replayability and HLE is correct with his observation on the uselessness of Skate for the player.

-C

Randomized starting locations for the opposing ships would actually be a very good change.

As for the Skate class sub. I think if you want to include a US sub, it may be better to us a newer Sturgeon or Permit class, with at least a partial loadout of the then-new Mk-48s. Those Mk-27s were useless against Soviet surface forces.


As for RVN forces, this was my line of reasoning Randomizer:

1. WWIII has just broken out, and given that circumstance, I think Saigon would be very fearful of Hanoi taking the opportunity to try it's final offensive war against them while the US is pre-occupied. Therefore, they decide to do something to try and get some US support against Hanoi if that happens.

2. For coordination, given the RVN armed forces spent their entire organizational history working with US advisors and combat troops, enough personnel would be able to communicate and organize with the Americans in the region (I.e. I'm sure quite a few of the officers would be able to speak sufficient English among other things).

3. Fair point about Maritime strike with F-5s, perhaps this could be compensated by giving the pilots "Rookie" crew performance.
My initial concern was that the F-4s operating out of Clark AFB would be operating at long range, and with the longest reach weapon they had (Bullpups) only reaching out 6nm, that they may struggle to inflict damage on Soviet Warships using SAMs.
I ended up being partially wrong. The F-4s did great damage, but they suffered very heavy losses (5 of 6 lost).
Given that this is before US Warships had proper AShMs, I felt that having to depend on S2S SAMs might leave my ships not capable of doing enough damage without resorting to guns, which is dangerous with that Sverdlov among the Soviets.

4. Finally, I saw this as an opportunity to make a little use out of some DB entries that don't appear very often. Even in the Vietnam War scenarios we have, we don't see RVN forces all that much, as they are often US forces that take center stage.


I've thought of a possible compromise if you are willing to implement it Mark:

Perhaps the player could only gain direct access to RVN forces upon using a special action, which in turn causes a score penalty from the possible political repercussions (expanding the war, possible congressional anger).

US aircraft would still have access to the Cam Ranh Airbase for emergencies and refueling without using this.

[BDukes]

Man what a fun scenario.

Did ok considering a blunder. I used the Phantoms to scout and hit the SAG. Lost 2 but good tradeoff as I nailed the cruiser and 2 sam ships. I chose 500lb loadouts over bullpups mostly because I get twelve a pass which is pretty fortunate given the lead ships' proximity to each other. My only real muck up was not going after the gun cruiser, which led to Mackenzie getting pasted badly by it. Loss comms but didn't sink. Chicago was the real bad ass in the end, tossing SAMs in surface mode and then using those 127mm to polish off the rest. Really fun scenario. Highly suggested. Great job, Mark!

Suggestions:

The airbase at Cam Rahn needs to include an access point. The aircraft can't take off.
You need more helicopters named Mike. Michael is formal but acceptable as well.

SIDE: United States
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x F-4D Phantom II
1x RVNS Tran Binh Trong
1x SH-2D Seasprite LAMPS I


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
73x 127mm/25 Mk10 AA-VT [Anti-Aircraft Common]
11x 127mm/25 Mk10 HE-PD [HiCap]
80x 127mm/38 Twin HE-PD Burst [HiCap, 2 rnds]
4x AN/SSQ-47 Julie Active Range-Only
3x Mk46 LWT Mod 2
24x Mk82 500lb LDGP
5x RGM-8H Talos
80x RIM-66A SM-1MR Blk IV
10x RIM-8G Talos
4x RIM-8J Talos

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------
640x 12.7mm/50 MG Burst [10 rnds]
200x 127mm/38 AA-VT [AntiAircraft Common]
375x 127mm/38 HE-PD [HiCap]
430x 20mm/80 Twin Oerlikon Burst [20 rnds]
4x 370 USG Drop Tank
245x 40mm/56 Mk1 Twin Bofors DP Burst [4 rnds]
2x 600 USG Drop Tank
340x 76mm/50 Mk22 Bofors HE
240x 81mm HE Mortar
8x AN/SSQ-47 Julie Active Range-Only
13x Mk11 Hedgehog ASW Mortar Salvo [24 rnds]
2x Mk46 LWT Mod 2
38x Mk6/9/14 Depth Charge Mortar
6x Mk82 500lb LDGP
60x Mk9 Depth Charge



SIDE: Soviet Union
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x BDK Alligator [Pr.1171 Tapir]
2x BPK Kashin [Pr.61]
2x Ka-25BSh Hormone A
1x KU Admiral Senyavin
1x PB Don [Pr.310]
1x PLARK-670 Charlie I [Skat]
1x RKR Kresta I [Pr.1134 Berkut]
1x SKR Kotlin [Pr.56 Spokoinyy]
1x VT Altay [Pr.160]
1x VTR Boris Chilikin [Pr.1559V]


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
71x 100mm/56 Frag
69x 100mm/56 HE
22x 100mm/70 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
41x 130mm/58 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
11x 152mm/50 Triple Frag Salvo [3 rnds]
6x 45mm/85 Quad Burst [8 rnds]
80x 9M22U [Grad] 122mm Rocket
48x AK-230 30mm/65 Twin Burst [50 rnds]
3x AK-725 57mm/80 Twin HE Burst [6 rnds]
3x AK-726 76mm/60 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
2x Generic Acoustic Decoy
16x Generic Chaff Rocket
24x SA-N-1b Goa [M-1M/P Volna-M/P, 4K91 / V-601]
2x SA-N-4a Gecko [9M33]
2x SS-N-7 Starbright [P-70 Ametist]

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------
329x 100mm/56 Frag
731x 100mm/56 HE
600x 100mm/70 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]
1298x 100mm/70 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
539x 130mm/58 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
400x 130mm/58 Twin SAP Burst [2 rnds]
40x 152mm/50 Triple AP Salvo [3 rnds]
73x 152mm/50 Triple Frag Salvo [3 rnds]
1120x 25mm/80 Twin Burst [20 rnds]
1788x 45mm/85 Quad Burst [8 rnds]
4x 53-51 Pattern Runner
10x 53-57 Pattern Runner [NATO 53-56]
20x 53-65K WH
720x 57mm/70 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
200x AK-176 76mm/60 Frag Burst [2 rnds]
552x AK-176 76mm/60 HE Burst [2 rnds]
464x AK-230 30mm/65 Twin Burst [50 rnds]
20x AK-630 30mm/65 Gatling Burst [400 rnds]
150x AK-725 57mm/80 Twin Frag Burst [6 rnds]
447x AK-725 57mm/80 Twin HE Burst [6 rnds]
780x AK-726 76mm/60 Twin Frag Burst [2 rnds]
1017x AK-726 76mm/60 Twin HE Burst [2 rnds]
23x AT-1M [NATO E45-75A]
8x Depth Charge [Aerial, 80kT Nuclear]
12x Depth Charge [Generic]
6x FRAS-1 [RPK-1 Vikhr, 5kT Nuclear]
70x Generic Acoustic Decoy
168x Generic Chaff Rocket
92x Generic Flare Rocket [Single Spectral]
32x Generic GMTR [Guided Missile Training Round]
48x Generic Towed Torpedo Decoy
88x PK-16 Chaff [TSP-60U]
48x PK-16 Flare [TST-60U]
140x PLAB-250 Depth Charge
20x PLAB-50 Depth Charge
40x RBU-1000 Salvo [6 rnds]
14x RBU-2500 Salvo [16 rnds]
84x RBU-6000 Salvo [12 rnds]
72x RGB-1 [NATO BM-1, Search, Passive Omni]
60x SA-N-1b Goa [M-1M/P Volna-M/P, 4K91 / V-601]
160x SA-N-3a Goblet [4K60]
88x SA-N-4a Gecko [9M33]
12x SA-N-8 Gremlin [9M36]
20x SET-53M [NATO ET-80A[60]]
4x SET-53M [NATO ET-80A[60]]
28x SET-65M Enot-2 [NATO ET-80A[76]]
16x SET-65M Enot-2 [NATO ET-80A[76]]
8x SS-N-14 Silex [70R, AT-2U]
4x SS-N-14 Silex [84R, AT-2UM]
4x SS-N-3c Shaddock [P-35 Progress, ASM]
14x SS-N-7 Starbright [P-70 Ametist]



SIDE: Neutrals
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------



SIDE: Nature
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------

WEAPONS/STORES LOST:
-----------------------------

[BDukes]

Nice little scenario though, but randomized starting positions for the forces would enhance replayability and HLE is correct with his observation on the uselessness of Skate for the player.

-C

Well, you are the randomizer! You should see what that Bagel Inhaler dude demands!

M

[tylerblakebrandon]

@TylerBlakeBrandon,
Cool, had not considered the exported FRAMS so thanks. Now find a pic with a USN Seasprite operational on an American FRAM and I will gladly climb down.

-C

Found this GAO report. Not looking good for LAMPS on US FRAM Cans.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/lcd-80-76.pdf

[Randomizer]

@ TylerBlakeBrandon,
Nice catch.

@HalfLifeExpert,
Thanks for the clarifications but I still maintain that the addition of the RVN is unreasonable within the perimeters of the scenario and adds nothing of value. I think that you underestimate the military/political complexity of joining somebody else's war, the difficulty of coordinating multinational military actions without preparation or liaison and the utility of the RVN Navy assets provided in the type of situation that they face.

With ARVN fighting for its life against the NVA, the diversion of substantial air assets (for the RVNAF) to support a USN force far out in the South China Sea against an enemy who poses zero threat to the Republic should probably be a very hard sell at the political level.

Also, the RVN Navy just brings a pair of WW2 cutters to the fray, adding a couple of 5"/38's and depth charge rails against a missile-armed enemy and nuclear submarines. I really doubt that the RVN Navy ever actually trained in ASW operations so their utility in this situation is effectively nil.

All that said, Mark generally produces interesting and challenging scenarios so of the decision to include the RVN or not lies with him. In either case, my high opinions of the efficacy of his CMO work remains. Having stated our respective cases, I will leave it to him and go play the scenario. Cheers.

-C

[Mgellis]

Thank you so much for all your feedback. You guys are great.

Thanks again.

Sorry about the issue with the Vietnamese air force....I just used the base in the import/export file and then forgot to test it. I'll take care of that and upload a new version of the scenario shortly.

I think the solution may be to create two scenarios. A more historical one with American forces only and a "what if" scenario that adds a few Vietnamese assets so people can see whether or not it makes much of a difference. (I'm thinking the Vietnamese ships might be useful as scouts more than anything else, although it probably doesn't hurt to have extra guns for the fight.)

[Mgellis]

Just posted version 3, which contains both versions of the scenario (and I fixed the weird submarine position in both of them...don't know how I missed that one!)

Anything else I need to change, add, fix, edit in the briefing or the description, correct, etc.? Or are these ready for the Community Scenario Pack?

Thanks!

[HalfLifeExpert]

Erm, I don't see the new version posted?

[Mgellis]

Erm, I don't see the new version posted?

That's weird. I could have sworn I uploaded the new file. It's there now. Sorry.