[ADDED] (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

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Eboreg
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[ADDED] (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Eboreg »

I've noticed a rather annoying tendency in terms of Air-to-air engagements in that the aircraft furthest away from the target automatically fires at it rather than the aircraft closest to the target despite the fact that I have yet to think of a situation where that would be appropriate. Especially since the closer aircraft has a much greater chance of hitting the target and most likely has less BVR weapons which, given that I often only allow aircraft to disengage when they don't have enough BVR weapons to continue the engagement, means that "closest shooter" engagement doctrine lends itself to greater aircraft survivability than "furthest shooter" engagement doctrine. Also, closest shooter doctrine gives missiles less travel time which means more chances to hit in a smaller amount of time. I would greatly appreciate it if this change to closest shooter doctrine was made.
Swant
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Swant »

Yes I agree 100% with this
Dimitris
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Dimitris »

Can we see a pre-event save that illustrates this?
Eboreg
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Eboreg »

Sure, here you go.
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Furthest Shooter Doctrine.zip
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tylerblakebrandon
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by tylerblakebrandon »

Eboreg wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 11:35 pm I've noticed a rather annoying tendency in terms of Air-to-air engagements in that the aircraft furthest away from the target automatically fires at it rather than the aircraft closest to the target despite the fact that I have yet to think of a situation where that would be appropriate.
Isn't that the idea of a F-15EX missile truck hanging back lobbing BVR missiles while the stealthy 22/35's point out targets preserving their own missiles?
thewood1
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by thewood1 »

So want to make sure we are talking about the same thing...

Looking at Flight 25212 vs 25211 - They are flying 160m apart. That's pretty close in CMO terms. 25212 had Rex 3 and Rex 4 as members and is closer to the first enemy units by 160m. 25211 has Rex 1 and 2 as members. As 25212 come into range, Rex 4 from fires first as its formation has it closer to the enemy unit. Within a few seconds, Rex 2 fires from 25211. Rex 2, part of 25211, is only 160m behind Rex 4, even though they are in separate groups. As the remaining units from 25212 and 25211 come into range of enemy aircraft, they each fire a Sparrow. There are 4 sparrows in the air now, all fired in sequence from the closest to the furthest aircraft.

There is also a trailing group named 25213 with two Eagles. They also fire in sequence as they get closer, but after 25211 and 25212.

The embedded screen cap shows Rex 2 highlighted as it fires a Sparrow. The unit right in from of it is Rex 4. Rex 4's missile is at the top of the screen. Rex 4 is closer and fired first. So I must be missing something because my single run through had the closest unit firing first and the sequence progressed as each Eagle came into range.
Screenshot 2022-04-06 122842.jpg
Screenshot 2022-04-06 122842.jpg (52.38 KiB) Viewed 631 times
thewood1
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by thewood1 »

Swant wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:10 am Yes I agree 100% with this
Do you have an example of this happening? I can't seem to reproduce it with the OP's save.
Eboreg
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Eboreg »

So... uh... I tried it again and... it turns out the devs fixed this when I wasn't looking.
thewood1
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by thewood1 »

Really? It seems like you're not the only one seeing it.
Swant
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Swant »

ok so here is a very basic example.
A flight of F-14s is engaging a single JAS 39 with Phoenix missiles. Only the shooter is cranking but his wing man is charging ahead. If the first missile misses it is always the f-14 furthest away that shoots the next. This will give the JAS time to get into missile range and fire before it has to go defencive.
Attachments
Test.zip
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Swant
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Swant »

Here is an example from Kashmir fire that I cleaned up a bit.
In this situation a group of Rafael is engaging a single J-17 with Meteors. The doctrine is set to "follow the missile in"
When this example starts the J-17 has just evaded a missile from the closest group. Just before they can fire a second missile, another group of Rafael's gets in to shooting range. Since they are furthest away they will take the shoot and fill the missile slot. This is obliviously bad, the shoot will have less chance to hit and the J-17 is going straight for the first group and might get into firing range and get a free shoots before the Meteor arrives.
Attachments
48bd3623-939c-44a4-94bf-68be7cbb76cb.zip
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thewood1
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by thewood1 »

Played with the Test scenario only for now. The issue isn't that the wingman is not firing because he's closer. The issue is that the wingman on that specific mission doesn't maintain formation and barrels in on the enemy fighter. The wingman is following standard doctrine and letting its lead fire as if its in its needed position off the wing of the leader. But its not. The leader is firing because it began the engagement.

If I take the group off the mission, the units behave as you'd expect and you can set up the doctrine and the closer unit will fire as needed depending on WRA and formation. Its something about the mission logic that's forcing the wingman to drive in. I'm going to try rebuilding the mission fresh and see what happens.
Swant
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Swant »

"The issue is that the wingman on that specific mission doesn't maintain formation and barrels in on the enemy fighter" has been around always:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... t=cranking

That the leader began the engagement doesn't matter as shown by my second example. There the leader in the closest group fires first but priority was given to the second group once it was in range.
thewood1
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by thewood1 »

When I get a chance I'll look at the other one. Focusing on why the wingman in a mission bores in after the lead fires right now. Its potentially a much bigger issue.
Dimitris
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Dimitris »

This is currently being worked on. It's a VERY complex issue to sort out. Might take a while.
Dimitris
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Re: (Feature Request) Closest shooter fires rather than furthest away

Post by Dimitris »

This was added a few builds back, with the parallelized salvo evaluation.
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