Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips

[metaphore]

A total of 58 Soviet aircraft survived on 6 airfields amongst those covered by those ADs:

[Zovs]

Thank you so much for putting this all together! Tremendous resource for doing T1 manual air in great detail.

[GibsonPete]

Using the techniques you and others have shared I average over over 3000 soviet air frames destroyed with the axis losses being around 50 (+ or - 10), mostly operational. A huge difference from just eight weeks ago. Thank you for this. [&o]

[metaphore]

Thank you guys, I'm glad you liked it

Now, I'm going to improve all those ADs depending on what objective the Axis player will give the highest priority.

It could be:
a) - reducing losses
b) - increasing the number of destroyed Soviet airframes
c) - preparation for the ground phase in order to kill as many Soviet pilots as possible


My favorite would be the last one as I think that is what would damage the VVS most, but it's also more difficult to measure its effect immediately after the Air Phase (we'll need to wait for a full turn result).

[metaphore]

b) - increasing the number of destroyed airframes:

- Soviet losses are close to 4,000 airframes, about 700 more than previous ADs;
- Axis losses were kept under 100, which would be an acceptable cost; to be noted that nearly half were due to AA fire;
- Number of Sorties went down from 2,958 to 2,017, nearly one thousand less, which also means a lot less ammo and fuel burned;
- Those hastily modified ADs can certainly be refined further for even better results...

[Zovs]

What further modifications did you do for item b)?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

This is what you are fighting against to get the most aircraft destroyed on the first turn. I will let everyone fill out the parameters of the "Bell Curve" & yes you will have outliers. But there is a theoretical limit to how many aircraft you can destroy(peak Soviet plane destruction) & knowing the rough estimate at the top is a good way of judging that. The next parameter is how many aircraft & pilots the Germans lose in the process. I believe I know that top of the bell curve so I go for close to peak Soviet plane destruction and the least amount of aircraft and pilots lost for the Germans on the Bell Curve which in my opinion the true test of how efficient your bombing is.

So our math wizards can put the numbers in since I have not done math since my "Master" classes in college.

[AlbertN]

Somehow the 'area' business does not work for me.
The AI will allocate Bf109 fighters as bombers, send them in, not destroy enough Soviet fighters on the ground; then the 'escort of 10 fighters' get overwhelmed here and there.

There must be a passage I am missing because I quite fancy the 'draw a few ADs and get done' instaed of the 1 by 1 individual airfield targetting.

[Zovs]

I did a first test with Luft 1 in RTL following these guides and the results were outstanding, 7 lost to 700. Try a smaller test for each Luft. This was tested in 0.15 beta, going to test the next beta patch Monday.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Somehow the 'area' business does not work for me.
The AI will allocate Bf109 fighters as bombers, send them in, not destroy enough Soviet fighters on the ground; then the 'escort of 10 fighters' get overwhelmed here and there.

There must be a passage I am missing because I quite fancy the 'draw a few ADs and get done' instaed of the 1 by 1 individual airfield targetting.

Yes, I've noticed in my latest tests that results were different from previous build but it's possible to refine those ADs to make them work again.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

This is what you are fighting against to get the most aircraft destroyed on the first turn. I will let everyone fill out the parameters of the "Bell Curve" & yes you will have outliers. But there is a theoretical limit to how many aircraft you can destroy(peak Soviet plane destruction) & knowing the rough estimate at the top is a good way of judging that. The next parameter is how many aircraft & pilots the Germans lose in the process. I believe I know that top of the bell curve so I go for close to peak Soviet plane destruction and the least amount of aircraft and pilots lost for the Germans on the Bell Curve which in my opinion the true test of how efficient your bombing is.

So our math wizards can put the numbers in since I have not done math since my "Master" classes in college.

The definitive limit is the number of Soviet aircraft in range of German bombers

[metaphore]

I've run a test this morning, refining a few ADs, and I overshoot 4,000 airframes destroyed.

Losses were kept under 100 but a lot of Ju 88 lost to Flak and ops losses. It doesn't feel right to me compared to He 111 losses (both this test and previous one) while there is roughly 3 Ju 88 for 2 He 111 on the map (15 groups vs 10). So maybe something weird is going on here as those Junkers were better bombers than older Heinkel.

I've kept the total number of sorties arround 2,000 and was aiming for 2 kills per sortie; I finally got 2.07.

At this point, It's probably still possible to refine those ADs and achieve better results:

[speedyglides]

Maybe it is possible to reduce flak losses micromanaging routes to AD areas and single hex missions so they don't fly over the highest enemy AA value hexes. I used to do that when I used tons of single hex missions in T1. Will try this evening to check results.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: speedyglides

Maybe it is possible to reduce flak losses micromanaging routes to AD areas and single hex missions so they don't fly over the highest enemy AA value hexes. I used to do that when I used tons of single hex missions in T1. Will try this evening to check results.

Yes you are right concerning AA losses as this could be a factor. Another one is flight altitude.

But disregarding AA losses only and considering that Ju 88 and He 111 on map ratio is 3/2, that ADs settings for both are the same but that loss rate is 5/1 (52 Junkers for 9 Heinkel), it's telling me that something funky could have been coded about those planes.

[metaphore]

There is also some funky coding concerning the way aircraft/groups/AOG are auto-allocated to missions by the engine: some are flown to the end of their lives (100% travel) while others close by are just waiting doing nothing (0%) and some pilots are totally overused (1 flew up to 38 missions in one day!) compared to others.

[Zovs]

@metaphore, do you still recommend this: StG 1, 2 & 77 were not used and set to REST on turn 1 ?

Also, do you send all Me 100's to reserve as per HYLA ?

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

@metaphore, do you still recommend this: StG 1, 2 & 77 were not used and set to REST on turn 1 ?

Also, do you send all Me 100's to reserve as per HYLA ?

Nope, I've used all 7 stukas groups for my late ADs and none of the Bf 110 Groups (ZG 26 and SKG 210). There is one Bf 110 loss logged but it seems related to Stuka gruppe stabs which I forgot to set on "Rest".

Previously, I was simply implementing jubjub's ADs and he did the opposite.

[Jango32]

Was there any reason for moving the Romanian Combat Air Command from Luftflotte 4 to the Romanian HQ? Same with the Hungarian commands.

[metaphore]

ORIGINAL: Jango32

Was there any reason for moving the Romanian Combat Air Command from Luftflotte 4 to the Romanian HQ? Same with the Hungarian commands.

Beside the fact that jubjub's ADs were built like that, nope!
Just take it like an exercice for building your own ADs and your question is proving that you have passed this stage.

There is only 9 German ADs set for Luftflotte 4 out of 32 possible. Unless one want to build 27+ -like I did myself in my late version-, Hungarians and Rumanians groups could have all been left subordinated to LF4 instead of regrouping them under their own national air commands.

[AlbertN]

Mostly - is it really felt the difference in Air Skill of the various HQs?