Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

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Nix77
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by Nix77 »

ORIGINAL: loki100
3 - you are right, its not the range the unit/freight can move. Everything gets 200 SMP (reduced for already spent MP), so it can move up to 200 rail hexes as long as there are no cost penalties.
ORIGINAL: Manual page 304
Unlike ground units utilizing rail transport, freight has unlimited SMP’s, but the amount of railyard tonnage capacity required to move the freight is variable and increases with distance from the railyard(s) and increased rail usage in particular hex(es).

I'm not sure who to believe :)

If the manual is correct, freight can move far away, but will use more railyard cap the further it goes and the more congested the rail lines are. I'm not sure how the system calculates where the depots will get their freight, maybe the link to another depot/VSS that uses least railyard cap?
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M60A3TTS
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by M60A3TTS »

I hope what follows will not appear overly critical as everyone is excited about getting into the details of this game. Someone once said words to the effect that the only bad question is the one not asked.

Some of the info loki puts out there is 100% correct and given with the very real desire to help the new players. I'm not sure some of this info at this stage where so many players are new just creates as many new questions as it answers.

I too struggled with supply, and not just starting out. After a couple scenario playthroughs, I was sure I finally understood supply. I didn't, but after the third, the logistics part finally clicked.

What we want to do here is separate the wheat from the chaff. The subject of this topic involves logistics. A lot of this rail capacity discussion is revolving around the ability to move units around on rails. That's not logistics, that's strategic movement. When a unit using rail movement passes over a rail hex, it consumes some capacity. What that means to you is that the next unit moving along the identical path may not be able to travel to the same hex. You will see that when in rail mode (F2) as one unit has moved to Point A and you can only move unit #2 to Point B, somewhere behind A because capacity is used. For now, I suggest you be content with that knowledge. Trying to understand formulas behind this are all well and good, but that's not terribly important, again, right now.

Please don't fixate on this 30-hex thing. It's far less important than you think in terms of your gameplay. What is it, in practical terms, if you are familiar with a speed governor on a vehicle, is a mechanism that prevents the AI from burning out your truck fleet as well as its own when it plays against you. The longer the distance that supplies travel from a depot, the more trucks are used and it is worse as weather conditions deteriorate. So by limiting any potential supply run to a 30 hex radius, your truck fleet is not subjected to a merciless cycle of attrition.

Your challenge is to keep these supply hauls well under 30 hexes. You do that by building depots close to the front. You use priority repair on the more important depots. You stack HQs on top of the depots to enhance capacity. You connect these depots to your rail network by repairing them. Focus on doing these things, and doing them well first.

After this, you can focus on how super-depots work, and setting supply priorities of depots and units to enhance your system. You can figure out how port supply works most effectively. Loki seems to like priority 4 depots everywhere and I don't. It really isn't a big deal, because we can both move our large armies on the map and properly supply them. We can do this because we both focus on the basics. If you will do the same, again, for now, maybe your arms will not need to be that long to tackle the logistics monster.

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

...

What we want to do here is separate the wheat from the chaff. The subject of this topic involves logistics. A lot of this rail capacity discussion is revolving around the ability to move units around on rails. That's not logistics, that's strategic movement. When a unit using rail movement passes over a rail hex, it consumes some capacity. What that means to you is that the next unit moving along the identical path may not be able to travel to the same hex. You will see that when in rail mode (F2) as one unit has moved to Point A and you can only move unit #2 to Point B, somewhere behind A because capacity is used. For now, I suggest you be content with that knowledge. Trying to understand formulas behind this are all well and good, but that's not terribly important, again, right now.

Please don't fixate on this 30-hex thing. It's far less important than you think in terms of your gameplay. What is it, in practical terms, if you are familiar with a speed governor on a vehicle, is a mechanism that prevents the AI from burning out your truck fleet as well as its own when it plays against you. The longer the distance that supplies travel from a depot, the more trucks are used and it is worse as weather conditions deteriorate. So by limiting any potential supply run to a 30 hex radius, your truck fleet is not subjected to a merciless cycle of attrition.

....


hate to disagree as your post is spot on, there is an Alice in Wonderland element to the logistics model (not that is unrealistic but that simply its tempting to get into the details when they are really not that useful)

but

there are 2 30 hex rules in the logistics system - that is the max overland route from unit-depot (which is what you are saying), but its also that a given rail hex will draw in needed rail/transport capacity from up to 30 hexes away.

Those 'trains' don't pay anything to arrive at the starting hex but then gain 200 SMP (less pre-used MP etc) to move to a destination. Depending on rail way congestion, they pay 1-6 SMP per hex as they move.
ORIGINAL: Nix77
ORIGINAL: loki100
3 - you are right, its not the range the unit/freight can move. Everything gets 200 SMP (reduced for already spent MP), so it can move up to 200 rail hexes as long as there are no cost penalties.
ORIGINAL: Manual page 304
Unlike ground units utilizing rail transport, freight has unlimited SMP’s, but the amount of railyard tonnage capacity required to move the freight is variable and increases with distance from the railyard(s) and increased rail usage in particular hex(es).

I'm not sure who to believe :)

If the manual is correct, freight can move far away, but will use more railyard cap the further it goes and the more congested the rail lines are. I'm not sure how the system calculates where the depots will get their freight, maybe the link to another depot/VSS that uses least railyard cap?

Both answers are correct as they refer to different things [:)]

1 - freight can move 200 rail hexes in a turn if there is no congestion, as congestion builds its range reduces. As in the player's notes, think of this as each tonne of freight is given 200 SMP and off it trots to its intended destination.

the 30 hex rule (this one) simply says that in determining how many units/tonnes of freight get 200 SMP to play with depends on how many level 2 railyards in 30 hexes still have unused capacity
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by dudefan »

ORIGINAL: loki100




the 30 hex rule (this one) simply says that in determining how many units/tonnes of freight get 200 SMP to play with depends on how many level 2 railyards in 30 hexes still have unused capacity.

How do I assess the full 30 hexes railyard 2 capacity? How can I know I have enough or not enough trains?

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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: dudefan
ORIGINAL: loki100




the 30 hex rule (this one) simply says that in determining how many units/tonnes of freight get 200 SMP to play with depends on how many level 2 railyards in 30 hexes still have unused capacity.

How do I assess the full 30 hexes railyard 2 capacity? How can I know I have enough or not enough trains?


you can't - which is really the point M60 was making.

Its constantly variable. Lets say you put a Soviet tank corps on a train, it holds that rail capacity (trains) till it detrains. So a given railyard will not have all its notional capacity till its been released.

feasibly such a unit will entrain in one turn, maybe move a short distance (entraining deducts SMP), reach its target the next, it probably doesn't have the SMP to detrain, so it does that in the 3rd turn. In the next logistics phase that rail capacity is returned to its notional depot.

in the logistics phase, railyards at the outer limits of the 30 hex range will be more likely to support a depot nearer to them than a hex at the margins
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by dudefan »

What is a good total railyard capacity to aim for? I have 60000 in November. Is that good or bad?
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by M60A3TTS »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

...

What we want to do here is separate the wheat from the chaff. The subject of this topic involves logistics. A lot of this rail capacity discussion is revolving around the ability to move units around on rails. That's not logistics, that's strategic movement. When a unit using rail movement passes over a rail hex, it consumes some capacity. What that means to you is that the next unit moving along the identical path may not be able to travel to the same hex. You will see that when in rail mode (F2) as one unit has moved to Point A and you can only move unit #2 to Point B, somewhere behind A because capacity is used. For now, I suggest you be content with that knowledge. Trying to understand formulas behind this are all well and good, but that's not terribly important, again, right now.

Please don't fixate on this 30-hex thing. It's far less important than you think in terms of your gameplay. What is it, in practical terms, if you are familiar with a speed governor on a vehicle, is a mechanism that prevents the AI from burning out your truck fleet as well as its own when it plays against you. The longer the distance that supplies travel from a depot, the more trucks are used and it is worse as weather conditions deteriorate. So by limiting any potential supply run to a 30 hex radius, your truck fleet is not subjected to a merciless cycle of attrition.

....


hate to disagree as your post is spot on, there is an Alice in Wonderland element to the logistics model (not that is unrealistic but that simply its tempting to get into the details when they are really not that useful)

but

there are 2 30 hex rules in the logistics system - that is the max overland route from unit-depot (which is what you are saying), but its also that a given rail hex will draw in needed rail/transport capacity from up to 30 hexes away.

Those 'trains' don't pay anything to arrive at the starting hex but then gain 200 SMP (less pre-used MP etc) to move to a destination. Depending on rail way congestion, they pay 1-6 SMP per hex as they move.

Oh, I don't mind. Sometimes I say or miss something and you're there as my safety net to keep me from saying something I'll later regret.

That said, what practical value do you find in this other 30-hex rule? Emphasis here is on the "practical". It's a nice to know thing, that capacity on a railhex will potentially increase. But you are going to be doing all the things needed to increase logistical capacity, and not gear it towards increasing rail capacity. The latter would be a secondary benefit and nothing worth building a strategy around. Now again, maybe I'm missing something else. Back to you..
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
....
That said, what practical value do you find in this other 30-hex rule? Emphasis here is on the "practical". It's a nice to know thing, that capacity on a railhex will potentially increase. But you are going to be doing all the things needed to increase logistical capacity, and not gear it towards increasing rail capacity. The latter would be a secondary benefit and nothing worth building a strategy around. Now again, maybe I'm missing something else. Back to you..

to me - none.

since the railyard/depot relationship is already set, I pay attention to depots as that I can control. I can sympathise with those asking for a map mode that indicates were level 2+ railyards are - simply as a small number are off the main W-E dual tracks and thus worth a side trip to incorporate.

So its a game function, it replaces the universal rail cap of WiTE1 with something more geographically realistic but in turn less easy to manipulate. Since you never suffer from having as much as you can, and it mostly falls onto the depot system and the focus of where your army should be, then its useful to know but of virtually no practical value?
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by MechFO »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: dudefan
ORIGINAL: loki100




the 30 hex rule (this one) simply says that in determining how many units/tonnes of freight get 200 SMP to play with depends on how many level 2 railyards in 30 hexes still have unused capacity.

How do I assess the full 30 hexes railyard 2 capacity? How can I know I have enough or not enough trains?


you can't - which is really the point M60 was making.

Its constantly variable. Lets say you put a Soviet tank corps on a train, it holds that rail capacity (trains) till it detrains. So a given railyard will not have all its notional capacity till its been released.

feasibly such a unit will entrain in one turn, maybe move a short distance (entraining deducts SMP), reach its target the next, it probably doesn't have the SMP to detrain, so it does that in the 3rd turn. In the next logistics phase that rail capacity is returned to its notional depot.

in the logistics phase, railyards at the outer limits of the 30 hex range will be more likely to support a depot nearer to them than a hex at the margins


So if you entrain a unit in Hamburg, it's Hamburgs Railyard capacity rather than f.e. Warsaw's being used if a unit stays entrained somewhere around Kiev?

In addition, if supplies can't be handed over to a depot in range than they would get parked along the way, so in theory you should have f.e. Warsaw on 1 so it can take the supplies that the west German railyards couldn't push forward?
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by Repsol »

Back to trucks for a while [8D]...

At a certain part of the front if i notice that my units are using lots of their own trucks to get supplies...Will lowering the supply priority instantly be the only/best solution to fix this or will the AI try to fix this for me by allocating more trucks to my closest depots next turn...I guess what i'm asking is that if a problem like this exist will it be a viable option to accept this for a turn or two and eventually the AI will sort it out...

Or should i lower the supply priority of my units immidiatelly...

I guess that i could move some of the units out of the area (ex. air) but if i don't want to do that...Will the truck situation get fixed automaticcal over time ?




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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Repsol

Back to trucks for a while [8D]...

At a certain part of the front if i notice that my units are using lots of their own trucks to get supplies...Will lowering the supply priority instantly be the only/best solution to fix this or will the AI try to fix this for me by allocating more trucks to my closest depots next turn...I guess what i'm asking is that if a problem like this exist will it be a viable option to accept this for a turn or two and eventually the AI will sort it out...

Or should i lower the supply priority of my units immidiatelly...

I guess that i could move some of the units out of the area (ex. air) but if i don't want to do that...Will the truck situation get fixed automaticcal over time ?

as the axis player the problem just escalates till around April 42. The malus on axis supply starts to bite as you push east and you can never really solve the problem of a lack of rail/depot cap.

So yes, while its a bit of a trade off I'd start squeezing out demand by lowering HQ priority. Its a tricky judgement but at some point truck loss due to trying to keep supply levels up costs you more MP/CV than having lower supply stocks in the units.

Try with the bulk of the infantry corps on #2, most of the pzrs on #3 and reserve #4 for maybe one corps in each army group.
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by Repsol »

Thanks
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by Bamilus »

So other than to connect to railyards size 2+ or to connect to depots, is there any reason as Axis to repair other rail lines? I.e. does going back later in 1941/1942 to repair the single track rail lines around Lvov help to reduce the congestion on the main Lvov double track line going east or does it not matter?
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

So other than to connect to railyards size 2+ or to connect to depots, is there any reason as Axis to repair other rail lines? I.e. does going back later in 1941/1942 to repair the single track rail lines around Lvov help to reduce the congestion on the main Lvov double track line going east or does it not matter?

yes and no.

Pragmatically, you become reliant on a single chain of rail track with side steps to incorporate larger railyards. It depends then on how much usage its getting, as side spurs can really help say with unit moves. But given the enduring trade off between super depots and repair up to the front I'm not sure there is much you can do.

Take the Lvov example, yes the side lines north and south can be useful to have repaired but the likely choke points are going to seriously to the east. A better dual spur is the line that runs to Brodny and Zhitomir. I think that would really ease the flow up to Kiev but its easily a 2 turn job for a FBD to complete.

I tend to a single rail in the Ukraine running at least to Dnepropetrovsk and supplement it with sidesteps to certain locations - like trying to get some depots on the north bank of the Dnepr etc
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by carlkay58 »

In the long run you will need those rails! But in the 41/42 timeframe you should be focusing on your 42 offensive to try and end the war. So I would concentrate more on the eastern part of the Ukraine and improving the rail net there. That is after you make sure the double line rails are done and you have one of the single lines done along the coast through Odessa, Nikoalaev, and the Crimea which should then be connected up to the Dnepr bend cities.
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by Bamilus »

Thanks for responses. 2 more questions:

1. Does having a unit loaded on rails use capacity? e.g. I load a unit, don't move it, and keep it loaded through next turn. Or does it only use capacity once it moves?

2. On the topic of side rail lines, for example let's say I have the entire AGS railroad web complete (south of Pripayet) and I'm trying to get an insane amount of supply to front-lines around Stalino, enough that would make the Lvov-Dnepro double line display red and bring in severe SMP penalties. Assuming enough railyard capacity, would the AI freight logic know to balance between the quickest route (Lvov to Dnepro) but also using the side routes to balance the SMP penalties? Or would it just try to force feed everything through the double track first and only then use the side rails?
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by loki100 »

1 - it doesn't use rail capacity as its static, it holds the railyard capacity used to originally entrain

2 - each tonne of freight will look for the cheapest route. So till you trigger a SMP penalty of +1, that is going to be the route with the least hexes. If that route picks up penalties, at some stage a secondary (longer in hexes) route becomes the cheapest so it will use that. Feasibly at some stage, the original direct route returns to being the cheapest and is adopted again.

Its the logistics equivalent of the D'Hondt system we use for electing the Scottish parliament [8D]
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by Bamilus »

this is elementary but I haven't had great success setting up interim depots with increasing priority (furthest back 0, then 1, then 2, then 3 behind the front lines, 4 at front lines) and getting it to seemingly work. Using Carlkays method of keeping everything at 4 does seem to work and when I was running low on freight in front lines I brought the 4's in the back lines down to 1 or 2 to release their stored freight and that did work, but now that I have the front lines all at 4 and decreasing priority going back, I havent had great success.

It seems the lower priority depots don't get any freight, even the priority 3. So instead of pushing the freight forward in a chain, it basically just lowers the entire freight output and nothing behind my lines receives freight nor stores it (mostly). I don't know if because there's no airbases or units around the level 1 depots (to create a demand), and so on, but it's pretty frustrating. I have all double tracks repaired and virtually all railyards 2+ are connected (a few in south like Taganrog or whatever are not, but the ones further back all are).

1. During a single logistics phase, can a depot 1 priority receive freight from an NSS (or 0 priority depot) AND then push that same freight forward to a level 2 priority or higher depot? Or, does it have to wait until next turn to push the freight received this turn.

2. In same example, if the depot 1 priority can push forward freight received in current logistics, does it reset the 200 SMP freight calc from the position of the depot, or does it keep the 200 SMP calc from the origin (NSS or 0 priority depot).

3. Does having multiple FBD's (1 in each sector) mess up the freight grid? The FBD's seem to be working but I got much worse numbers than Carl in his game, which I'll analyze his saves to see.

4. I think I've asked this before, but can I literally set everything to 0 priority depot within Germany or will that mess up production? This includes everything except maybe 1 export port I'd keep open.
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by loki100 »

The problem with Carlkay's model is the truck demand, its a complex trade off and he clearly gets it to work but (I think) the super-depot model is less resource intensive.

Direct answers and then some musings:

1 - yes and sort of no (I'm sure you really appreciate these answers)

2 - yes and yes (for the same reason that #1 is yes/no)

3 - shouldn't but I can think of problems if you actually repair too much in a linear line too quickly

4 - no reason why not, in the main 0 will shed their freight. 1 is also fairly safe as they rarely take what they can't immediately use.

First bit - when does a depot take freight? It will take it (according to priority) if it can send it out to meet local unit demand (this is why a depot near an airfield will grab freight) or ... if it is as close to the front as that particular unit of freight could reach (ie as far as the 200 SMP would take it, esp in the light of usage penalties).

So going back to your #1 and #2, those low priority rear area depots aren't really looking for freight in their own right but are invaluable to catch freight that can't make the journey to the front line. In turn as they have a limited role in meeting unit demand, they tend not to hold many trucks.

The next bit is a guess. I think if you repair too much in a linear line, esp if you add depots as you go, it can be inefficient in the short run. Each depot/railyard prob needs to repair (so that is a supply cost), they may struggle to pull down what they need (railyard cap), in the main I don't double team my FBDs in the sense of both actively repairing the same branch line.

edit - if you want one of my saves, feel free to ask. Its a HtH game so you can have my password but obv can't run it forward.
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RE: Trying to Wrap my Arms Around Logistics

Post by Bamilus »

Thanks again, yes I'd appreciate that very much. I've learned a lot from analyzing Carl's saves and I know you have a different approach so would be really helpful to see one of your saes.
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